Tigers @ Braves 10-2-16 Game # 161

[Sbee]

Well the 2 or 3 losses that Brad was responsible for did in fact cause us to mis the playoffs. It's not just about in game decsions it's about line ups and putting guys in the best possible postion to win with his lineups. It's a valid debate in my opinion.

Saying Ausmus cost us 2-3 games net is pure speculation though, mainly depending on your preconceived notions about him.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Hey what time does that makeup game against Cleveland start today?

About Never:15.

 

[Rebbiv]

We actually outperformed our pythagorean W-L by two games, a lot of that is luck and evens out over time but that doesn't scream mismanagment. I do give him some credit for the decision to sit Upton for 3 games and that did get him going. The bullpen wasn't great but I put a decent amount of that on the starters, we were 28th and 21st in quality starts over the last two seasons. If starters don't go deep, the bullpen will struggle.

I just think the significance of Ausmus (or any manager) is way overblown, but it dominates sports conversation. This is becoming the norm for Tigers fans, talk about firing the manager after every season, it went on for years with Leyland, continuing with Ausmus. You can't fire the whole team, so you want to fire the manager.

I had a nice long talk with Tommy John last year about this time and our conversation center around "managers". The gist is just what I thought. Managers do not win games, but they certainly can lose games. The average manager does neither. It is the bottom of the barrel (Ausmus) that cost teams games. Most of the time it is because they do not put people in the position to succeed. Tommy John said the HoF manager Walter Alston was a terrible manager and players did not like playing for him. The veterans (Wills, Davis, etc) would hold player only meetings and kangroo courts to police players. If the veterans didn't, then Alston would never had been a HoF manager. He said it was a joke that Alston got into the HoF, knowing how bad he really was. Talent wins and the manager gets credit, even when they are bad.

When is the last time you saw Ausmus try and let a starter pitch his way out of struggles? The scenario usually went:

1. Starter was pushing 100 pitches and was inline sometimes for a Quality Start
2. Ausmus lets them pitch the next inning
3. First two guys get on and Ausmus hanks said starter
4. Bullpen let's both runners score

And if you are a bullpen guy, what confidence are you going to have consistently coming into the game with men on base? There is a huge difference in pitching from the set or from the windup.

What about the horrendous baserunning over the last couple of years? The manager is fully responsible. How many games has the baserunning alone cost this team?

It isn't just about the losses. It is about destroying player's confidences. If I am a pitcher, starter or reliever, no way do I want to play for Ausmus.

 

[biggunsbob]

Saying Ausmus cost us 2-3 games net is pure speculation though, mainly depending on your preconceived notions about him.

We can agree to disagree. I am not saying he was a disaster but he just did not give his team the best chance at winning some games. He did some Alright things but come on. Even you wouldn't have pitched to Eaton in that doubleheader loss to Chicago in Chicago, he was torching us that series. Base open walk him . Yes the next guy could have won it but we will never know as Brad did not give his team the best chance at winning that game. He did sit Upton and it worked. Give him props to that . I don't know really what to do here. He is better then Caldwell though I will give him that.

 

[tomdalton22]

I had a nice long talk with Tommy John last year about this time and our conversation center around "managers". The gist is just what I thought. Managers do not win games, but they certainly can lose games. The average manager does neither. It is the bottom of the barrel (Ausmus) that cost teams games. Most of the time it is because they do not put people in the position to succeed. Tommy John said the HoF manager Walter Alston was a terrible manager and players did not like playing for him. The veterans (Wills, Davis, etc) would hold player only meetings and kangroo courts to police players. If the veterans didn't, then Alston would never had been a HoF manager. He said it was a joke that Alston got into the HoF, knowing how bad he really was. Talent wins and the manager gets credit, even when they are bad.

When is the last time you saw Ausmus try and let a starter pitch his way out of struggles? The scenario usually went:

1. Starter was pushing 100 pitches and was inline sometimes for a Quality Start
2. Ausmus lets them pitch the next inning
3. First two guys get on and Ausmus hanks said starter
4. Bullpen let's both runners score

And if you are a bullpen guy, what confidence are you going to have consistently coming into the game with men on base? There is a huge difference in pitching from the set or from the windup.

What about the horrendous baserunning over the last couple of years? The manager is fully responsible. How many games has the baserunning alone cost this team?

It isn't just about the losses. It is about destroying player's confidences. If I am a pitcher, starter or reliever, no way do I want to play for Ausmus.

the funny thing about your opinion....you have almost no clue what goes on in the dugout or in the clubhouse. We see his daily in-game decisions and have the benefit of second guessing those decisions. Those decisions are only a small fraction of what his job entails. Only the players truly know if he's a good or bad manager.

edit: he may very well be a bad manager...my post that is "sticking up for him" is only meant to reiterate my opinion that his managing is not the reason they missed the playoffs.

 

[tigermud]

I don't know what it is about Chicago but IMO brad has his worst managerial games against the white soxs in Chicago. Remember the year before when he didn't turn melky around whom was hitting much worse RH, HR game over.

Speaking of the White Soxs I see Ventura got fired today. Maybe if Brads back next year they can just have him take games in Chicago off and let someone else manage those games.

 

[Sbee]

We can agree to disagree. I am not saying he was a disaster but he just did not give his team the best chance at winning some games. He did some Alright things but come on. Even you wouldn't have pitched to Eaton in that doubleheader loss to Chicago in Chicago, he was torching us that series. Base open walk him . Yes the next guy could have won it but we will never know as Brad did not give his team the best chance at winning that game. He did sit Upton and it worked. Give him props to that . I don't know really what to do here. He is better then Caldwell though I will give him that.

We can continue to have these same managerial arguments until the Tigers win the world series, every other season the manager will be the scapegoat. I'm not sure if it's the same with other fan bases but Tigers fans for sure look for someones head on a platter. I can't recall anyone on these boards saying that Ausmus won a game for us, but I see him blamed for almost every close loss. When they win, credit the players, when they lose, it's blame the manager. Same old story, game after game, year after year.

 

[UMRules06]

Honestly in my opinion the team overachieved a bit this year. I too had them as a sub .500 team. I'm willing to see if we can tweak some things to shore up the weaknesses. Boyd/Fulmer/Norris, really provided me with some renewed hope that the rotation can be pretty good moving forward.

If they want to replace Brad fine, but I'd rather clean up other areas first.

 

[sggatecl]

I had zero playoff expectations this year, have been waiting for the rebuild that they keep putting off. Feel bad for the people that were on the edge of their seat with World Series expectations.

 

[byco42]

I had playoff expectations when they actually were one of the two teams in the WC for a day and lingered the rest of September.

 

[kalinecountry]

Saying Ausmus cost us 2-3 games net is pure speculation though, mainly depending on your preconceived notions about him.

All those at bats he gave to Mike Aviles?

 

[Rebbiv]

We can continue to have these same managerial arguments until the Tigers win the world series, every other season the manager will be the scapegoat. I'm not sure if it's the same with other fan bases but Tigers fans for sure look for someones head on a platter. I can't recall anyone on these boards saying that Ausmus won a game for us, but I see him blamed for almost every close loss. When they win, credit the players, when they lose, it's blame the manager. Same old story, game after game, year after year.

By your argument and others, the Tigers could have Pee Wee Herman as manager, and we couldn't second guess or criticize.

All managers make good moves and all managers make bad moves. It is the difference between what a skilled manager would do, versus a not so skilled manager.

Yes, ultimately the players have to perform. But all things being equal, a manager needs to but the players and the team in a position to succeed. Batting James McCann leadoff against RHP is not putting McCann in a position to succeed nor the team. This is certainly an extreme example, but it illustrates that managers have an impact.

Lineups are important

How a manager manages the pitches is important

Yes, it takes talent to win. But it still takes a manager to use that talent and to maximize its output.

 

[biggunsbob]

We can continue to have these same managerial arguments until the Tigers win the world series, every other season the manager will be the scapegoat. I'm not sure if it's the same with other fan bases but Tigers fans for sure look for someones head on a platter. I can't recall anyone on these boards saying that Ausmus won a game for us, but I see him blamed for almost every close loss. When they win, credit the players, when they lose, it's blame the manager. Same old story, game after game, year after year.

This is just not the case . Brad had blown some games in my opinion it he had done a few things like bench upton to get him going. But he is just a average Manger right now.
But with all the stats avaliable and you do not want to lay one finger of blame on Brad is just ridiculous. . Some of theses lineups and pen decisions can and should be debated . Starting Zimmerman 2 times down the strech was beyond dumb.

 

[Sbee]

All those at bats he gave to Mike Aviles?

Mike Aviles being horrible does merit discussion, the question is who is to blame? should we blame Aviles for hitting well below his career averages? should we blame Avila for adding him to the roster? Do we blame Ausmus for starting Aviles over Moya/Collins when JD was hurt?

we were going to suffer with JD out regardless of who we played, the question up for debate was should we have played Moya and lived with horrible defense or Collins who was sporting a .599 OPS in Toledo? we all have the benefit of hindisght now but there was no good option with JD out.

We also had a similar situation when we had to play Casey McGehee when Castellanos was hurt. These aren't good situations to be in, we somehow stayed in contention in August while starting Romine, McGehee, and Aybar regularly. You can accuse Ausmus of playing a bad hand that he was dealt poorly, but I don't know of many better options.

 

[Sbee]

This is just not the case . Brad had blown some games in my opinion it he had done a few things like bench upton to get him going. But he is just a average Manger right now.
But with all the stats avaliable and you do not want to lay one finger of blame on Brad is just ridiculous. . Some of theses lineups and pen decisions can and should be debated . Starting Zimmerman 2 times down the strech was beyond dumb.

There are a lot of subjective things that you could put on the manager, I tend to blame the players for not performing, somehow they tend to escape blame. I'm not saying that Ausmus deserves none of the blame, I'm saying that if you made of list of problems that the tigers had this year, managing would barely make the top 10, but it dominates discussion on this board year after year, regardless of who is at the helm.


Funny how Avila doesn't get talked about nearly as much for signing pelfrey, I know it was mentioned in a few past threads but if you're going on a witch hunt, that one should be talked about.

 

[Sbee]

By your argument and others, the Tigers could have Pee Wee Herman as manager, and we couldn't second guess or criticize.

All managers make good moves and all managers make bad moves. It is the difference between what a skilled manager would do, versus a not so skilled manager.

Yes, ultimately the players have to perform. But all things being equal, a manager needs to but the players and the team in a position to succeed. Batting James McCann leadoff against RHP is not putting McCann in a position to succeed nor the team. This is certainly an extreme example, but it illustrates that managers have an impact.

Lineups are important

How a manager manages the pitches is important

Yes, it takes talent to win. But it still takes a manager to use that talent and to maximize its output.

you and I both know that there is a basic strategy in baseball that you need to employ and not everyone knows that, but beyond that there isn't that much that managers can impact, especially in the AL. In a lot of ways it's similar to playing blackjack. If a manager keeps the clubhouse happy and the players are engaged, along with doing things by the book, then their impact is minimal. There's a reason managers get paid less than middle relievers.

 

[Rebbiv]

you and I both know that there is a basic strategy in baseball that you need to employ and not everyone knows that, but beyond that there isn't that much that managers can impact, especially in the AL. In a lot of ways it's similar to playing blackjack. If a manager keeps the clubhouse happy and the players are engaged, along with doing things by the book, then their impact is minimal. There's a reason managers get paid less than middle relievers.

All things being equal, you are right. I would suspect (cannot prove) that Joe Maddon would have made the playoffs with this team and the injuries.

The difference between a good manager and an average manager is minimal. Ausmus isn't even an average manager.

Bad baserunning is a reflection on the manager and DET has been at the bottom for the last 3 years. If that isn't directly attributed to the manager, I do not know what you would hold the manager responsible for.

 

[gotime909]

All things being equal, you are right. I would suspect (cannot prove) that Joe Maddon would have made the playoffs with this team and the injuries.

The difference between a good manager and an average manager is minimal. Ausmus isn't even an average manager.

Bad baserunning is a reflection on the manager and DET has been at the bottom for the last 3 years. If that isn't directly attributed to the manager, I do not know what you would hold the manager responsible for.

I could not agree with this post more.

 

[byco42]

All things being equal, you are right. I would suspect (cannot prove) that Joe Maddon would have made the playoffs with this team and the injuries.

The difference between a good manager and an average manager is minimal. Ausmus isn't even an average manager.

Bad baserunning is a reflection on the manager and DET has been at the bottom for the last 3 years. If that isn't directly attributed to the manager, I do not know what you would hold the manager responsible for.

I have been trying to point out to Sbee that Ausmus is currently incompetent at his profession and should not be pursuing it at this level. Brad should be paying his dues in places like Bowling Green, Burlington and Benoit, where no one care about his mistakes or even knows about them.

 

[Sbee]

All things being equal, you are right. I would suspect (cannot prove) that Joe Maddon would have made the playoffs with this team and the injuries.

The difference between a good manager and an average manager is minimal. Ausmus isn't even an average manager.

Bad baserunning is a reflection on the manager and DET has been at the bottom for the last 3 years. If that isn't directly attributed to the manager, I do not know what you would hold the manager responsible for.

We have a slow team, so I don't see us leading in any baserunning categories. Miggy is horrible, thinks he's crafty and runs into outs, he was the same with Leyland. I'll let you prove me wrong with stats if they're out there but I don't think that our baserunning has changed much since Leyland was manager.

Joe Maddon is an outlier, I've always liked him. I like closer by committee, I like him using a catcher with a high OBP in the leadoff spot, etc, going against conventional wisdom. I can't really think of any other managers that buck the system like that. I wish Ausmus or any manager of the tigers would make that move, but I can only think of 1 out of 30 that do that.

again, the amount of time dedicated to discussing such a minor facet of the teams performance is astounding.