I agree with Tigermud...before any trade is made you HAVE to get rid of the most incompetent member of the entire organization. After that, I would trade anyone that you think could get you a good return. Nobody is untouchable.

tomdalton22 said:

I agree with Tigermud...before any trade is made you HAVE to get rid of the most incompetent member of the entire organization. After that, I would trade anyone that you think could get you a good return. Nobody is untouchable.

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The problem assuming you're referring to Avila is then who is the next GM? Next in line, I doubt there's one in mid-season you can get that's any good. And probably not enough time to evaluate team to trade..

I'm not in favor of trading certain guys but even if I was there is no way they get value from them.. Even Miggy. No one is going to take on that salary and give back some top prospects.. It won't happen. Same with JV.

Lets set the record straight first. DD was following orders from Mr I in trying to get the best players. And Mr I even said so on a tv conference. Al was following the same orders when he took over, Problem was there was that good of free agents available. He took what seem to be the best out there. Yea Lowe was a bad deal from the start. And Pelfrey was the worst deal for sure. Both Brad and Al were dealt hands that were getting older and injury prone.

But really the damage was done when too long of contracts were given. V-Mart year long injury lead to Prince nightmare contract. And that was done some time ago. There were many that said that would lead to bad times ahead. Texas bailed them out to some degree. But Kinsler's contract is really 6+ b/c of Prince's money. That money alone could buy another player or at least part of a good center fielder.

A many are crying about spilled milk that was spilled a long time ago. Because some one was trying to win a world series by short cutting, to get there. It was his money and he could spend it how he wanted.

I think Al and Brad want to win as bad as any one else. I all so think a many of the players do to. Sanchez has come back to pitch some good innings eep that up and things will change. Upton laid out to catch and keep the perfect game going, failed to catch the ball but the ball stayed in front and he made a good recover to keep the damage manageable. BTW he on pace, to his highest walk season in his career.

Where Tigers are getting hammered is center field Third base! DH to a degree. And lets face it Cabrera has not been beast Cabrera. And the Starters 428.1have not been going deep to keep the pressure off the bull pen 228.1.= Starters 65.22% bull pen 34.78% that is not good. It also shows another way this team is miss manages. Starters 71.64> bull pen 18.82 million 20.81%.
Bull Pen pitching 34.78% for 20.81% of the pitching money. Starters are not pulling there money!!!!!!!!!

The big problem is accountability, and attitube. Quite a bit lays at management door. The players did sign the contracts saying they would perform up to there contract. There blame to go around.

It's not about "they want to win as bad.." They are horrible at their jobs.

The team has been unwatchable for me the last couple years. I loved watching JV when he was an automatic W. Thats just not the case anymore. Miggy id love the idea of him retiring a tiger but if were burning the house down and starting over id hate for him to have to endure that. Our front office struggles finding and developing top tier young talent. We typically trade any young talent we do have for people like zimmerman that are on the cusp of fizzling away into obscurity. Theres no light at the end of the tunnel....get rid of everyone. As much as id hate to see Miggy go....do him that favor.

mhughes0021 said:

The team has been unwatchable for me the last couple years. I loved watching JV when he was an automatic W. Thats just not the case anymore. Miggy id love the idea of him retiring a tiger but if were burning the house down and starting over id hate for him to have to endure that. Our front office struggles finding and developing top tier young talent. We typically trade any young talent we do have for people like zimmerman that are on the cusp of fizzling away into obscurity. Theres no light at the end of the tunnel....get rid of everyone. As much as id hate to see Miggy go....do him that favor.

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Would you trade Miggy for a B type COF? No one will take on his 30m a year and give us anyone good. It won't happen. It's easy to say trade everyone until you realize we won't get anyone good in return.. Last year of his contract, sure - maybe even a year more. But not 5-6 years of 30M unless you get 20m broken veteran back..

Mitchrapp said:

Would you trade Miggy for a B type COF? No one will take on his 30m a year and give us anyone good. It won't happen. It's easy to say trade everyone until you realize we won't get anyone good in return.. Last year of his contract, sure - maybe even a year more. But not 5-6 years of 30M unless you get 20m broken veteran back..

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Have you asked the yankees that question? Boston?

There are 30 teams all wanting the same. To win the World Series. If every team were equal, we would see each team be in the World Series on average once every 15 years and win it once every 30 years. They have gone to the World Series twice in the last 15 years and last won the WS 33 years ago. Technically speaking, that isn't all that bad.

Now, let's talk about drafted players. The All Star team consists of 30 players from each team, 60 players total. Trivia Question. Aside from Verlander, name all the drafted Tigers' players that have made multiple AS games as a Tiger in the last 25-30 years.

Andrew Miller 1 (not with DET)
Fernando Rodney 3 (none with DET)
Justin Verlander 6
Curtis Granderson 3 (1 with DET)
Alex Avila 1
Matt Joyce 1 (not with DET)
Jair Jurrjens 1 (not with DET)
Omar Infante 1 (not with DET)
Fransisco Cordero 3 (none with DET)
Brandon Inge 1 = fan write in
John Smoltz 8 (none with DET)
Robert Fick 1 = token
Tony Clark 1 = token
Travis Fryman 5 (4 with DET, drafted in 1987)
Jose Lima 1 (not with DET)
Howard Johnson 2 (none with DET, drafted in 1979)

Am I missing anyone?

mhughes0021 said:

Have you asked the yankees that question? Boston?

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And when have they traded for a player making Miggy's money or near, with all his years left AND giving up top prospects?

If going back 30 years
Justin Thompson 97-1
Trammell 88
Morris 87
Whitaker 87
Nokes 87-1

Rebbiv said:

There are 30 teams all wanting the same. To win the World Series. If every team were equal, we would see each team be in the World Series on average once every 15 years and win it once every 30 years. They have gone to the World Series twice in the last 15 years and last won the WS 33 years ago. Technically speaking, that isn't all that bad.

Now, let's talk about drafted players. The All Star team consists of 30 players from each team, 60 players total. Trivia Question. Aside from Verlander, name all the drafted Tigers' players that have made multiple AS games as a Tiger in the last 25-30 years.

Andrew Miller 1 (not with DET)
Fernando Rodney 3 (none with DET)
Justin Verlander 6
Curtis Granderson 3 (1 with DET)
Alex Avila 1
Matt Joyce 1 (not with DET)
Jair Jurrjens 1 (not with DET)
Omar Infante 1 (not with DET)
Fransisco Cordero 3 (none with DET)
Brandon Inge 1 = fan write in
John Smoltz 8 (none with DET)
Robert Fick 1 = token
Tony Clark 1 = token
Travis Fryman 5 (4 with DET, drafted in 1987)
Jose Lima 1 (not with DET)
Howard Johnson 2 (none with DET, drafted in 1979)

Am I missing anyone?

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So, over the last 30 years weve picked some talent (16 in 30 years doesnt really seem all the good in the first place).....but a majority of the time they dont develop until they leave Detroit. Is that fair from the data you gave?

kalinecountry said:

If going back 30 years
Justin Thompson 97-1
Trammell 88
Morris 87
Whitaker 87
Nokes 87-1

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I guess I didn't go back far enough, or includes just those that had the multiple appearances within the last 30 years. I hope people get the gist. The Tigers SUCK at drafting All Star caliber players. It went on before even Randy Smith. Jim Campbell (1962-1983 GM, 1978-1990 as President) was the last decent drafting GM we had. He drafted most of the 1984 team or traded for them.

mhughes0021 said:

So, over the last 30 years weve picked some talent (16 in 30 years doesnt really seem all the good in the first place).....but a majority of the time they dont develop until they leave Detroit. Is that fair from the data you gave?

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30 players per league = 2 players per team on average per year.

Even when the rosters were 25, the teams were 14 per league, just a little less than 2 per team. The list of Yankees over the last 30 years would be 4-5 times as long as the Tigers' list, and that IS just the players they drafted, not the "bought" players.

mhughes0021 said:

So, over the last 30 years weve picked some talent (16 in 30 years doesnt really seem all the good in the first place).....but a majority of the time they dont develop until they leave Detroit. Is that fair from the data you gave?

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Some of the guys weren't here long or at all, Smoltz (Trying to win a WS, Alexander was 9-0 with Detroit after the trade. Though he did shit the bed in the playoffs). Other's were good here but we traded and got good back, Granderson-Scherzer. A couple examples..

Rebbiv said:

I guess I didn't go back far enough, or includes just those that had the multiple appearances within the last 30 years. I hope people get the gist. The Tigers SUCK at drafting All Star caliber players. It went on before even Randy Smith. Jim Campbell (1962-1983 GM, 1978-1990 as President) was the last decent drafting GM we had. He drafted most of the 1984 team or traded for them.

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http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Bill_Lajoie
Bill Lajoie was the last GM who had a knack for drafting quality players.
Had success until owner Tom Monaghan brought in Bo Schembechler to fuck things up.

kalinecountry said:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Bill_Lajoie
Bill Lajoie was the last GM who had a knack for drafting quality players.
Had success until owner Tom Monaghan brought in Bo Schembechler to fuck things up.

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Lajoie was a good drafter, but he will be tainted in my books for allowing Parrish and Gibson to walk in Free Agency. Parrish after 1986 and Gibson after 1987.

Rebbiv said:

Lajoie was a good drafter, but he will be tainted in my books for allowing Parrish and Gibson to walk in Free Agency. Parrish after 1986 and Gibson after 1987.

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True, but we don't know if the owner told him. Monaghan acted strange for awhile before selling the team.

keep...

Kinsler
Cabrera *
Fulmer
J.D.

* hopefully he has a few more good years left

Get rid of..

Victor for sure He's always hurt and hasn't contributed much
Verlander He's just about done, so lets get something for him
McCann Can't hit

I wonder how good of a year Upton would have to have for him to opt out. Right now he is right around the 6th best LF in baseball and would be the #1 free agent LF.

Just hoping.

tomdalton22 said:

I wonder how good of a year Upton would have to have for him to opt out. Right now he is right around the 6th best LF in baseball and would be the #1 free agent LF.

Just hoping.

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Over 22m for the next 4 years? I'd say when pigs fly..