My conclusion to this thread:

Palestine (Hamas) is as much at fault for their people being killed as Israel is. All they would need to do is arrest all suspected terrorists and admitting Israel's right to exist. That would fix 60% of the problem. Israel would have to do the same, allowing Palestine a separate state.

Israel is at fault for killing innocents. Let me ask, if Canadian terrorists took over a factory In chicago and kidnapped women and children, then started shooting RPGs at random buildings, do you destroy the whole factory when you know innocent people will likely die? Hell no!

At some point, they have to take responsibility and change tactics because they're making the situation worse.

Monster said:

My conclusion to this thread:

Palestine (Hamas) is as much at fault for their people being killed as Israel is. All they would need to do is arrest all suspected terrorists and admitting Israel's right to exist. That would fix 60% of the problem. Israel would have to do the same, allowing Palestine a separate state.

Israel is at fault for killing innocents. Let me ask, if Canadian terrorists took over a factory In chicago and kidnapped women and children, then started shooting RPGs at random buildings, do you destroy the whole factory when you know innocent people will likely die? Hell no!

At some point, they have to take responsibility and change tactics because they're making the situation worse.

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There is a problem with your conclusion, Hamas is a terrorist organization, and don't care if they kill innocents. Does that make all of Palestine responsible for it? That's like blaming the USA because of the Bloods, Crips, Latin Kings, etc that we can't control. Rounding them up and arresting them is not as easy as it sounds, especially when they won't go without a fight and are the only people protecting you at times.

What about Israel not caring if they hit the right people or not so long as they get their "blood for blood" thing?

The biggest step that could be made by either side would be Israel pulling out of the occupied areas that the UN and world court have declared belong to Palestine, and stop allowing it's people to settle there.

Thumb said:

There is a problem with your conclusion, Hamas is a terrorist organization, and don't care if they kill innocents. Does that make all of Palestine responsible for it? That's like blaming the USA because of the Bloods, Crips, Latin Kings, etc that we can't control. Rounding them up and arresting them is not as easy as it sounds, especially when they won't go without a fight and are the only people protecting you at times.

What about Israel not caring if they hit the right people or not so long as they get their "blood for blood" thing?

The biggest step that could be made by either side would be Israel pulling out of the occupied areas that the UN and world court have declared belong to Palestine, and stop allowing it's people to settle there.

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Whether they are a terrorist organization or not, their goal is the same. It's not like they attack Israel just for shits and giggles. I'm not saying the whole of Palestine is responsible, but there comes a point when they have to start doing something about Hamas.

Cripps and Bloods are not armies or terrorists. They are criminals. A criminal organization in which money is the goal. Law enforcement arrests them and imprisons the guilty. Is it perfect? No, but the people stand against them. I think if Palestine took it upon themselves to chang things and voluntarily handed over the suspects to Israel, it'd be an almost done deal to have a two state solution. It's about effort and showing real results, even if it is slow. Trust has to start somewhere.

As I said, Israel should not be blindly tossing missiles at buildings when they know there is a damn good chance they are using human shields. If Palestine and Israel had a joint task force to take these people down from the inside instead of just killing everyone inside, innocent blood wouldn't be as bad and a partnership could form between the two sides.

Without Palestinian help, I don't think there's anything Israel can do but make the situation worse...which seems to be their calling card. And shockingly, I don't see this happening anytime soon.

And to whoever posted the amount that we give to Israel in aid...that's fucking bullshit. I'm sick of giving money to other countries when we have such a massive debt and serious budget issues with things like public schools and highways and healthcare.

Sometimes I agree with Rand Paul and that scares me.

Thumb said:

The biggest step that could be made by either side would be Israel pulling out of the occupied areas that the UN and world court have declared belong to Palestine, and stop allowing it's people to settle there.

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But you said Hamas is a terrorist organization. Do you really think they'd be satisfied with just getting UN promised land? You don't think they'd keep pushing to get more? I really don't see anything changing without Palestine and Israel working together to push out Hamas.

Monster said:

But you said Hamas is a terrorist organization. Do you really think they'd be satisfied with just getting UN promised land? You don't think they'd keep pushing to get more? I really don't see anything changing without Palestine and Israel working together to push out Hamas.

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I wasn't talking about Hamas. I don't care what satisfies them. But they will always have new recruits from inside Palestine as long as Israel not just occupies their lands, but actively settles them. If you want to do away with Hamas, the first step is to take away the gas fueling the fire.

Thumb said:

I wasn't talking about Hamas. I don't care what satisfies them. But they will always have new recruits from inside Palestine as long as Israel not just occupies their lands, but actively settles them. If you want to do away with Hamas, the first step is to take away the gas fueling the fire.

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I agree. I'd add that Israel unintentionally created Hamas.

Hamas won't just go away overnight even if Israel withdraws, but if they did the things you suggest and also stop the regular blockades, checkpoints and embargoes against Palestinians... The major grievances of the Palestinians would end, and along with that Hamas ability to recruit would dry up.

They would still continue to attack Israel, and Israel would have to show some restraint and not respond with the blood for blood thing. If they could do this, Hamas would eventually go away. Unfortunately since Rabin was assassinated Israel hasn't shown any restraint when dealing with the Palestinians... And I'm sure they know what they're doing... Makes me suspect this is all by design. A long, gradual campaign of ethnic cleansing.

hailhail said:

Just curious: even if you think what the Israeli's are doing is a matter of self defense in some way, do you actually agree with their methods strategically and morally? The potential negative ramifications of bombing hospitals, lone children, etc. include: further galvanizing the "enemy" and forcing it even further to an extreme oppositional form (Palestinians, with good reason I might add, feel like they have no just recourse already), not to mention the potential to lose the increasingly important PR battle internationally -- which they will, not now, but in the long run.

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Try to keep up. From post 60...

Spartanmack said:

...I've clearly said Israel is not perfect, just that they're better than Iran and Hamas/Hezbollah which have the support of the overwhelming majority of the Palestinians...

...And finally, if they're not worse then what the fuck are we arguing about? Is it your contention that I support the actions of the Israelis? If so, talk about straw man arguments. Please find a quote where I justify or support any of it. All I said in response to Thumb was that while not perfect, they're clearly better than Iran and in response to you that they're also better than Hamas/Hezbollah.

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Spartanmack said:

Try to keep up. From post 60...

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Why do you think I framed my post in the form of a question?

hailhail said:

Why do you think I framed my post in the form of a question?

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I know it was a question - and it seemed like a leading one and one I've already answered when chump made the strawman argument earlier. That said, I do think Hamas should be getting more of the negative publicity than Israel for using schools, hospitals, mosques, etc as storage facilities and launch sites for their munitions.

I think I posted before in the thread but can't really keep up. the Israeli military does some insanely bad shit and does it very covertly. Hamas and the affiliated terrorist groups are equally as evil when it comes to underhanded way in which they operate and manipulate the citizenry ...so too did the Viet Cong. the relatively sophisticated and US-backed Israeli side is far more capable than Hamas is, but all it takes is disruption and terror to continue to "win" some battles. Having friends who have lived in Israel its amazing the level of constant threat that the people there live in and even today, many Israelis are pissed the airport is closed because of the MH17 downing in Ukraine.

Israel is always on alert and the people there can't live in daily fear ...same to be said for the Palestinians.

If people have nothing to lose they will lash out. I have no idea how to get from where things are to peace, but I think any serious plan would have to start with building something for the Palestinians to want to keep.

Gulo Blue said:

If people have nothing to lose they will lash out. I have no idea how to get from where things are to peace, but I think any serious plan would have to start with building something for the Palestinians to want to keep.

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How about building them a great big statue of Mohammad then?

I'm pretty sure they would want to keep that.

Spartanmack said:

I know it was a question - and it seemed like a leading one and one I've already answered when chump made the strawman argument earlier. That said, I do think Hamas should be getting more of the negative publicity than Israel for using schools, hospitals, mosques, etc as storage facilities and launch sites for their munitions.

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It was a leading question for sure, but I dont think you've really answered it still.

tinselwolverine said:

How about building them a great big statue of Mohammad then?

I'm pretty sure they would want to keep that.

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I was thinking more on an individual/family level. If you don't have freedom, democracy, property rights, and a realistic chance of getting a job, you might want to take to the streets. GDP per capita is $1,924 in the West Bank and $876 in Gaza and unemployment is around 25% and higher for younger people. I think finding a way to fix that would be the most effective way to reduce violence. Usually, there's no such thing as a magic 'improve the economy' button, but in this case, Israel's security measures are the bottleneck for trade. It's not a solution to everything, but the more they spend on detection and screening so that they can allow more trade, the better.

Gulo Blue said:

I was thinking more on an individual/family level. If you don't have freedom, democracy, property rights, and a realistic chance of getting a job, you might want to take to the streets. GDP per capita is $1,924 in the West Bank and $876 in Gaza and unemployment is around 25% and higher for younger people. I think finding a way to fix that would be the most effective way to reduce violence. Usually, there's no such thing as a magic 'improve the economy' button, but in this case, Israel's security measures are the bottleneck for trade. It's not a solution to everything, but the more they spend on detection and screening so that they can allow more trade, the better.

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Oh.

Just as well, then; I was just informed that images of Mohammed are sacrilegious in the Islamic religion.

tinselwolverine said:

Oh.

Just as well, then; I was just informed that images of Mohammed are sacrilegious in the Islamic religion.

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Oops. You threw one right over the plate and I didn't take a swing at it. I was looking to expand on my previous post and I lost track of the point I was supposed to get back to. ...something, something, comic strips.

Gulo Blue said:

I was thinking more on an individual/family level. If you don't have freedom, democracy, property rights, and a realistic chance of getting a job, you might want to take to the streets. GDP per capita is $1,924 in the West Bank and $876 in Gaza and unemployment is around 25% and higher for younger people. I think finding a way to fix that would be the most effective way to reduce violence. Usually, there's no such thing as a magic 'improve the economy' button, but in this case, Israel's security measures are the bottleneck for trade. It's not a solution to everything, but the more they spend on detection and screening so that they can allow more trade, the better.

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but Israel > Hamas, so...

michchamp said:

but Israel > Hamas, so...

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who said they were "greater than" Hamas? and "so..." what?

michchamp said:

but Israel > Hamas, so...

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So... what? Do you know how to convince a population help make the people on the other side of the wall stronger and just eat it while attacks continue? It takes time to build an economy. How do you proceed with the Marshall Plan while the fighting continues?

Gulo Blue said:

So what? Do you know how to convince a population help make the people on the other side of the wall stronger and just eat it while attacks continue? It takes time to build an economy. How do you proceed with the Marshall Plan while the fighting continues?

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so... who cares? Israel is better than Hamas. Those Palestinians have no complaints. They should all consider themselves lucky to even be alive.

These are not the droids you are looking for...

move on.