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Public verses Private school

biggunsbob

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This debate comes up every year in the playoffs.. I think last year it broke down 8 and 8 out of the sixteen teams in the finals.. Some were playing each other..

This year there are 6 private schools and 10 public schools and this time around all the private schools will be playing public schools in the title games..


D-8..MUSKEGON CATHOLIC CENTRAL vs.........Beal City..
D-7..DETROIT LOYALA Vs............................. Ishpeming. (rematch from last season).
D-5..GRAND RAIPDS CATHLOIC CENTRAL Vs...Menominee.
D-4..GRAND RAPIDS SOUTH CHRISTIAN Vs.....Marine city.
D-2..BIRMINGHAM BROTHER RICE Vs.............Muskegon.
D-1..DETROIT CATHOLIC CENTRAL Vs............Clarkston

Hopefully IT WILL 3-3 But then maybe the public schools can go 6-0...:)



D-6 Clinton verses Ithaca (Public school battle.)
D-3 Dewitt Verses Zeeland west (Public school battle).
 
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I would have never made note of it otherwise, but it is interesting that in each division, it seems to be a private school playing a public school for the title.

I often hear that private schools have an advantage, and win championships all the time or too frequently.

But to me, in my observation there are just the usual cast of characters that win all the time. A small subset of the state's private schools (maybe 7-9 of them) and a small subset of the state's public schools (6-10 of them) seem to be the culprits that get to championship games, and win championships on a repeated basis.

For every Brother Rice there is a Muskegon. For every Orchard Lake St Marys, there is an East Grand Rapids. For every Traverse City St Francis, there is a Mendon or Ithaca.

No one else (the remaining majority of public or private schools) gets to championship games beyond a single appearance here or there.
 
There was talk three years ago of among selected Public School Coaches to "secede" from the MHSAA and only play against other public schools, including a separate championship.
 
There was talk three years ago of among selected Public School Coaches to "secede" from the MHSAA and only play against other public schools, including a separate championship.

I'm aware of a certain public high school hockey coach that was trying to spearhead such a thing. Ironically, he himself went 4-2 against private schools in 7 seasons and won a state title beating two private school powerhouse programs along the way.
 
I'm aware of a certain public high school hockey coach that was trying to spearhead such a thing. Ironically, he himself went 4-2 against private schools in 7 seasons and won a state title beating two private school powerhouse programs along the way.

I was in the middle of reporting that:

Dueling High School showcases spark public-private controversy

Novi head coach Todd Krygier has these black-coal eyes that glow with intensity when he gets passionate over a topic.

At the forefront of his mind presently is the initiative to institute a wholesale reform in the playoff structure of all Michigan High School Athletic Association programs, from basketball to bowling. It?s a topic that he certainly wanted to get on the table immediately.

When asked about the logistics involved in organizing the inaugural Michigan Public High School Hockey 2011 Invitational Showcase, held from Feb. 9-12 at Chelsea?s Arctic Coliseum, he quickly addressed the issues that caused its staging on the very same weekend as the Michigan Interscholastic Hockey League Showcase held in Trenton.

?We organized some core coaches into a steering committee,? said Krygier. ?They contacted more and more coaches to see if there was interest and support for the issues that we have.?

Those issues are displayed prominently on mphsh.com for anyone to review.

Krygier and his fellow coaches claim that the figurative and literal playing fields upon which High-School athletes compete in the state of Michigan is unfairly slanted to favor private school athletic programs.

?Hockey is the catalyst that has fueled the issue,? said Krygier. ?But hockey is one small part of the picture. The real issue is that there is a private school business model and a public school business model. The public schools are schools of accommodation. Private schools are entrepreneurial enterprises, and many build their programs around sports and good academics.?

Krygier and other public school hockey coaches believe that MSHAA rules and regulations put the public schools at a disadvantage.

?The reality is that there are different rules between private and public schools,? said Chelsea head coach Don Wright. ?We look at it from the standpoint that there should be different state championships for public and private schools.?

?Private schools are beating public schools on a consistent basis in the state playoffs, and it allows the private schools to say that they are better,? said Krygier. ?We?re not talking about a competitive balance here.?

There?s a case to be made in some sports, and within some divisions, but not in others. In regards to hockey, private programs have captured nine of the last 11 Division 1 titles. Novi Catholic Central has seven of those nine. In Division 3, it?s the same ratio - nine of 11, with Cranbrook owning six. In Division 2, however, 10 of the last 11 titles have been won by public programs, with Trenton capturing five.

Brother Rice has won every Division 1 lacrosse state title since 2005, and private schools have won three of six in that same time frame in Division 2.

However, in football, private programs have won 4 of the last 12 state championships in Division 1. In Division 2, it?s one of the last 12. And in Division 3, no private school has won a state championship since the 1999 restructuring that divided football into eight playoff divisions.

In basketball, the last private school to win a Class A state championship was Detroit Catholic Central in 1976. In Class B, the last four championships have been captured by private schools. In Class C, private schools have won four of the last 11. In Class D, it?s six of the last 11.

Finally, baseball. Private schools have won a total 15 of 52 championships awarded across all four divisions since 1998.

Still, in light of this mixed evidence, several hockey programs with a long history of participation in the MIHL showcase opted to participate in the Michigan Public High School Hockey 2011 Invitational Showcase - namely Novi, Brighton, Farmington, Howell and Clarkston - to protest the perceived inequity across all sports and to support the proposed reform of separating public and private schools come playoff time.

Not all public school coaches agree with the tactics used to promote the playoff reform.

?There is a process by which things can change at the High-School level,? said Trenton head coach Mike Turner, like starting with going though the Coach?s Association. ?There were 36 schools in last years MIHL Showcase, and 27 of them were public programs.?

That includes Marquette, which participated in both the Public and the MIHL Showcases.

?My opinion was to have the (Public Showcase) on a different weekend,? said Marquette head coach Joe Papin, ?and not to interfere with the (MIHL) Showcase. I understand the argument completely, and we know what its like to beat a private school for a state championship. But we know there are inequalities, and that?s what the Public Showcase is trying to state.?

Some disagree with the whole premise of inequality.

?There?s no validity to their argument,? said Novi Catholic Central head coach Todd Johnson. ?That private schools have had an unfair advantage over the public schools across all sports has been an argument across all 50 states and across all sports that the National Federation (of State High School Associations) sponsors.?

?It?s an ongoing argument,? said Turner. ?You can go back 50 years to when I was playing hockey in Detroit.?

To Johnson, and to other officials of the MIHL Showcase, targeting the same weekend to stage the Public Showcase only weakens the institution of High-School hockey in the state of Michigan.

?The one thing we?ve always supported is a ?United We Stand? approach. We all have competition for players from the Travel ranks. We were working together for a while to promote High School hockey,? said Johnson. ?Even though we?re not all pulling in the same direction now, we don?t want them to fail. We told them, ?Have your Public Showcase; we?ll support you. We?ll drive scouts to your event. Just don?t have it on the same weekend.? Obviously, they had intent to keep it on the same weekend for a reason.?

Krygier and the steering committee has no plans to change the weekend of next year?s Public Showcase until the reform they are championing transpires. The gears are turning, and not slowly.

?Jack Roberts (president of the MSHAA) has heard a presentation delivered by the athletic directors from the KLAA (Kensington Lakes Activities Association) and they informed him that they will be moving forward, with or without him.?

The proposal will also be heard at the Athletic Directors? State Convention in March, with the ultimate goal of a formal presentation to the MHSAA.

?I?m also suggesting that if the MHSAA is not going to move to separation in state playoffs, then public-school programs should no longer schedule private-school programs in the regular season,? said Krygier. ?I?m going to promote that until there is change. Things are really moving behind the scenes.?

That includes public schools separating from the MSHAA, according to Krygier, if that organization does not comply to these proposed reforms.

?There are plans in progress right now, maybe a couple years away,? said Krygier. ?We believe that we can make our programs even more attractive than the private school programs if we did separate from the MSHAA.?

As for the cadre of public school hockey coaches who were MIHL Showcase regulars and separated to build their own event, Johnson said:

?We?re not waiting for them, I can tell you that. We?re moving forward, and we?re going to get better every year."
 
I think Private schools have a advantage over public schools...
Can I prove it.. probably not.. Like was mentioned above there are some
Public schools hat have had shady past?
East Grand Rapids comes to mind... There are lot of Muskegon teams that took advantage of heights becoming a Charter school.. Probably nothing wrong with that.
 
I think Private schools have a advantage over public schools...
Can I prove it.. probably not.. Like was mentioned above there are some
Public schools hat have had shady past?
East Grand Rapids comes to mind... There are lot of Muskegon teams that took advantage of heights becoming a Charter school.. Probably nothing wrong with that.

Certain ones do in certain sports, yes. My kids went to UD Jesuit. Not exactly an athletic powerhouse like CC, but their were some standout teams and players over the years.
 
I think Private schools have a advantage over public schools...
Can I prove it.. probably not.. ...

at Brother Rice we were accused of recruiting. The BR coaches I had were adamant we did not, and it's not like we dominated every sport. We were notably bad in ones that lend themselves to "recruiting" like basketball. And we dominated some sports that didn't really generate a lot of money, like swimming and lacrosse.

I personally don't think we did. I think that success breeds success though. if a coach makes a name for himself, more kids are going to want to play for him.

I do think private schools have more of an edge in general due to the fact that by nature, their students are coming from families with more money/resources, so they can afford better equipment, summer sports camps, travel teams, etc. and on top of that, parents that are more involved in their kids' lives and education, so more disciplined. this makes them better at team sports.

some of my high school coaches/teachers maintained that Country Day did give kids scholarships for athletics (which is a violation). which... if you look at some of the athletes that went there - Chris Webber, Shane Battier... it IS a bit glaring.
 
Reading that piece about the inequity claimed in hockey made me think a bit about what I said earlier.

As data they use these examples:

There?s a case to be made in some sports, and within some divisions, but not in others. In regards to hockey, private programs have captured nine of the last 11 Division 1 titles. Novi Catholic Central has seven of those nine. In Division 3, it?s the same ratio - nine of 11, with Cranbrook owning six.

Is this indicative of private schools having a categorical advantage, or is it a case of two particular private schools (Cranbrook and CC) being very good at hockey?

You don't have to look far to find another individual program that wins a great deal of titles. Same paragraph.

In Division 2, however, 10 of the last 11 titles have been won by public programs, with Trenton capturing five.

CC, Cranbrook and Trenton are three of the best hockey programs in the state. Others being OLSM and Brother Rice. Yet others being Brighton, Marquette, Mona SHores, Calumet, Grosse Pointe North.

Like I suggested in football, a small subset of the state's private schools and a small subset of the state's public schools seem to be the culprits that get to championship games, and win championships on a repeated basis.

It seem less and less as I look at thins like "private schools" are winning too much. It seems more like a small handful of private schools win repeatedly. But so do a small handful of public schools.
 
Reading that piece about the inequity claimed in hockey made me think a bit about what I said earlier.

As data they use these examples:

Is this indicative of private schools having a categorical advantage, or is it a case of two particular private schools (Cranbrook and CC) being very good at hockey?

Those schools attract excellent hockey talent and they are well coached.

Like I suggested in football, a small subset of the state's private schools and a small subset of the state's public schools seem to be the culprits that get to championship games, and win championships on a repeated basis.

It seem less and less as I look at thins like "private schools" are winning too much. It seems more like a small handful of private schools win repeatedly. But so do a small handful of public schools.

Seeding the hockey tournament and eliminating half the field and having only one state tournament would shake things up a lot. Reform is necessary and possible. Three state champions are in three divisions of 50+ or so teams, of which a handful in each (10 or so) division are contenders. The rest simply fill out the brackets, some of which are very competitive and others are stocked with inferior teams that win a region and get mercied in the quarterfinal.
 
Hockey is indeed odd in the fact that every team in the state makes the playoffs. Many of which as you say just round out the field.

It's also odd in that nearly a third of the teams are co-op programs, made up of kids from more than one school. In a few cases, they're kids from a combination of public and private schools.

I just don't see the imbalance or inequity that some claim favors the private schools in terms of results.

What I do see are a few private schools that win a LOT, and a whole lot of private schools that don't. I also see a few public schools that win a lot, and whole lot that don't. One elicits claims of unfairness, the other does not.
 
Those schools attract excellent hockey talent and they are well coached.



Seeding the hockey tournament and eliminating half the field and having only one state tournament would shake things up a lot. Reform is necessary and possible. Three state champions are in three divisions of 50+ or so teams, of which a handful in each (10 or so) division are contenders. The rest simply fill out the brackets, some of which are very competitive and others are stocked with inferior teams that win a region and get mercied in the quarterfinal.

sounds like college hockey!
 
at Brother Rice we were accused of recruiting. The BR coaches I had were adamant we did not, and it's not like we dominated every sport. We were notably bad in ones that lend themselves to "recruiting" like basketball. And we dominated some sports that didn't really generate a lot of money, like swimming and lacrosse.

I personally don't think we did. I think that success breeds success though. if a coach makes a name for himself, more kids are going to want to play for him.

I do think private schools have more of an edge in general due to the fact that by nature, their students are coming from families with more money/resources, so they can afford better equipment, summer sports camps, travel teams, etc. and on top of that, parents that are more involved in their kids' lives and education, so more disciplined. this makes them better at team sports.

some of my high school coaches/teachers maintained that Country Day did give kids scholarships for athletics (which is a violation). which... if you look at some of the athletes that went there - Chris Webber, Shane Battier... it IS a bit glaring.


I think you are right MC...
 
I thought it was fairly common knowledge that Chris Webber went to Country Day on an "Art Scholarship".

Wink wink. Nudge nudge.

I'm certain there are situations where some private schools do things to get a kid into their school, as noted above in the case of Chris Webber's gift for water colors. But I'm certain it happens on some occasions at public schools as well.

I have heard crazy stories about one particular lake-front private school's former patterns of acquiring kids.
 
a small number of great programs that seem to always win and the rest of the programs are average or suck

Did you see this year's bracket? And 11 different champions in the last 16 seasons. The talent is definitely more evenly distributed these days.
 
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