MSU basektball recruiting

gotime909 · May 9, 2017

Saw we lost out to DePaul for Tyger Campbell. We gotta stop going heads up with these elite programs.

Sbee · May 9, 2017

gotime909 said:
Saw we lost out to DePaul for Tyger Campbell. We gotta stop going heads up with these elite programs.

He reclassified to 2018 so he's in the same class as Loyer, he'd be one of 3 PG's for 2 years of his career, didn't make sense for him from a roster perspective.

DePaul also hired his HS coach

Spartanmack · May 10, 2017

Sbee said:
I think it's safe to say that we lost to TSU because Izzo benched Marvin Clark. MSU was without Branden Dawson who was recovering from an injury, Clark played 11 minutes, all in the first half. Izzo challenged him at halftime and Clark basically rolled his eyes, so he sat the entire 2nd half and overtime. We were forced to play Bess extended minutes who was just coming back from an injury himself. Izzo basically said that he wasn't going to be forced to play a guy who's not giving the proper effort regardless of the state of the roster.

Of course you can't go back and re-play the game inserting Marvin Clark in the 2nd half, but given what happened and Izzo's words, it's not hard to figure out.

of course you can't replay the game so that's pure speculation. I hink it's safe to say we lost to TSU for plenty of reasons and benching Marvin Clark isn't in the top 5. and again, Clark is a completely different story - not nearly the talent of DD or Ward and not nearly the difference maker.

Spartanmack · May 10, 2017

Sbee said:
You're just dying to bring up Deshone Kizer. Go ahead and start a Deshone Kizer jerk off thread so you we can argue if a QB is good if they go in the 2nd round of the draft. It's fucking hilarious that you're so desperate to discuss Kizer that you draw such a lame parallel in a discussion about basketball.

Again, I'll continue to bring up Izzo in this argument because he knows what he's talking about, a hell of a lot more than either of us. Of course he's not infallible and makes mistakes, but I trust him a lot more than a guy who really doesn't understand the way basketball is played and just watches the ball when it's in the air. If someone makes shots they're good, if they don't, they're bad, never mind the other 90% of the time when they don't have the ball in their hands.

Now let's argue this over 100 more posts because your fragile ego doesn't allow you to ever let anything go.

Lol, my fragile ego? did you read this temper tantrum you just threw before you posted it then accused me of having a fragile ego? you're so pathetic - you insult other posters intelligence with patronizing lines like "most fans only watch half the game" so you don't have to make legitimate arguments to defend moronic ideas like it makes sense that goins got equal minutes with DD. and you make other dismissive comments like Izzo, DJ and draft experts say otherwise but "what do they know?" And then you cry like a little baby when those people you patronize throw it right back at you and prove you're not the expert you think you are. Get over yourself. There's a massive difference between information and knowledge - you seem to confuse the two.

by the way, I'm not surprised you chose to throw a fit rather than admit you got something completely wrong - again. also no mea culpa on the bit about you making the point that goins was a much better perimeter defender? again, not surprising - better to make a scene and completely ignore it now that you can't deny it.

Sbee · May 10, 2017

Spartanmack said:
of course you can't replay the game so that's pure speculation. I hink it's safe to say we lost to TSU for plenty of reasons and benching Marvin Clark isn't in the top 5. and again, Clark is a completely different story - not nearly the talent of DD or Ward and not nearly the difference maker.

So a game that's tied at the end of regulation where we play without our starting 4, then we bench our backup 4, and that's not top 5? Keep in mind that you should pick your battles with me, I know everything is a fight to the death simply because I said it, but let this one go.

Sbee · May 10, 2017

Spartanmack said:
Lol, my fragile ego? did you read this temper tantrum you just threw before you posted it then accused me of having a fragile ego? you're so pathetic - you insult other posters intelligence with patronizing lines like "most fans only watch half the game" so you don't have to make legitimate arguments to defend moronic ideas like it makes sense that goins got equal minutes with DD. and you make other dismissive comments like Izzo, DJ and draft experts say otherwise but "what do they know?" And then you cry like a little baby when those people you patronize throw it right back at you and prove you're not the expert you think you are. Get over yourself. There's a massive difference between information and knowledge - you seem to confuse the two.

by the way, I'm not surprised you chose to throw a fit rather than admit you got something completely wrong - again. also no mea culpa on the bit about you making the point that goins was a much better perimeter defender? again, not surprising - better to make a scene and completely ignore it now that you can't deny it.

You put words in my mouth by saying that I said that Goins was a great perimeter defender, I responded by saying that I never said he was great but he was better on ball screens than Ward (true) and moved his feet better than DD (also true).

As for Goins getting equal minutes to DD, he didn't, he was close to minutes with Ward, I think that's what you meant. Again, Izzo and Stephens said that Ward could only go for 3 or 4 minutes at a time, he didn't have the stamina and when he got tired, he didn't move as well, wasn't as low in his stance, etc. Of course you are more likely to pick up fouls when tired as well.

If you want to drag this out about Ward/DD, that's fine, you have no inability to let something go when I make a post. Let's clarify, are you saying it's BS that Ward was gassed after 3-4 minutes? Are you saying that even though he was gassed, he should have played? Let me know

Spartanmack · May 11, 2017

Sbee said:
You put words in my mouth by saying that I said that Goins was a great perimeter defender, I responded by saying that I never said he was great but he was better on ball screens than Ward (true) and moved his feet better than DD (also true).

As for Goins getting equal minutes to DD, he didn't, he was close to minutes with Ward, I think that's what you meant. Again, Izzo and Stephens said that Ward could only go for 3 or 4 minutes at a time, he didn't have the stamina and when he got tired, he didn't move as well, wasn't as low in his stance, etc. Of course you are more likely to pick up fouls when tired as well.

If you want to drag this out about Ward/DD, that's fine, you have no inability to let something go when I make a post. Let's clarify, are you saying it's BS that Ward was gassed after 3-4 minutes? Are you saying that even though he was gassed, he should have played? Let me know

I didn't put words in your mouth, I made a sarcastic comment that was only a slight exaggeration from what you said.

What I meant was DD was underplayed (true) and Goins shouldn't have gotten as many minutes as he did while Izzo was benching DD instead of developing him by letting him play through mistakes.

I'm not the one who can't let anything go - I just think it's funny that you can't admit when you're wrong. I didn't bring up Kizer to rehash that argument - I was right then and I've been proven so. I brought it up because you made a patronizing comment about how people who don't agree with you only watch half the game and other patronizing comments like "but what do they know?" referring to Izzo and DJ for underplaying DD (and Ward) because they must know more than anyone else (except you maybe). It's perfectly legitimate for me to demonstrate that you have a history of making those patronizing statements and being wrong when you make them.

Spartanmack · May 11, 2017

Sbee said:
So a game that's tied at the end of regulation where we play without our starting 4, then we bench our backup 4, and that's not top 5? Keep in mind that you should pick your battles with me, I know everything is a fight to the death simply because I said it, but let this one go.

Don't flatter yourself, I don't pick on you just because you said something, you just happen to make a lot of really dumb statements then you insult other posters' intelligence when they disagree with those dumb statements. And I do pick my battles and so far I have a pretty good record - Johnny Adams, the B1G East, DD & Ward, Deshone Kizer just to name a few off the top of my head.

I'm happy to have this one as well - yeah, it's not in the top 5 because there's no reason we should have been in a close game with TSU in the first place, regardless of injuries. And if I'm wrong, and it is the 4th or 5th reason, it's still a distant 4th or 5th behind the top 3 - so far back that it might as well be the 100th reason. Since you take everything so literally maybe you can take a victory lap over the possibility that the 5th reason we lost to TSU may have been benching Marvin Clark. But before you do, keep in mind we still could have easily lost even if Izzo played Clark - remember, he was benched for a reason.

Sbee · May 11, 2017

Spartanmack said:
I didn't put words in your mouth, I made a sarcastic comment that was only a slight exaggeration from what you said.

What I meant was DD was underplayed (true) and Goins shouldn't have gotten as many minutes as he did while Izzo was benching DD instead of developing him by letting him play through mistakes.

I'm not the one who can't let anything go - I just think it's funny that you can't admit when you're wrong. I didn't bring up Kizer to rehash that argument - I was right then and I've been proven so. I brought it up because you made a patronizing comment about how people who don't agree with you only watch half the game and other patronizing comments like "but what do they know?" referring to Izzo and DJ for underplaying DD (and Ward) because they must know more than anyone else (except you maybe). It's perfectly legitimate for me to demonstrate that you have a history of making those patronizing statements and being wrong when you make them.

So you didn't answer my question. Are you saying that it was BS that Izzo and DJ said that Ward couldn't go more than 3 or 4 minutes at a time or are you saying he should have played despite being gassed? Which is it?

I say that you only watch half of the game because it's clear that's all you do. You are the classic fan who sees the ball go in the basket and thinks that they're playing well. For example, someone like Winston gets blown by over and over again but he hits a 3 and the comes out of the game and everyone wonders why. I can't wait to hear your complaints about how much Schilling plays next year.

Sbee · May 11, 2017

Spartanmack said:
Don't flatter yourself, I don't pick on you just because you said something, you just happen to make a lot of really dumb statements then you insult other posters' intelligence when they disagree with those dumb statements. And I do pick my battles and so far I have a pretty good record - Johnny Adams, the B1G East, DD & Ward, Deshone Kizer just to name a few off the top of my head.

I'm happy to have this one as well - yeah, it's not in the top 5 because there's no reason we should have been in a close game with TSU in the first place, regardless of injuries. And if I'm wrong, and it is the 4th or 5th reason, it's still a distant 4th or 5th behind the top 3 - so far back that it might as well be the 100th reason. Since you take everything so literally maybe you can take a victory lap over the possibility that the 5th reason we lost to TSU may have been benching Marvin Clark. But before you do, keep in mind we still could have easily lost even if Izzo played Clark - remember, he was benched for a reason.

Whatever, I think Izzo benching Clark in that game had a lot to do with the outcome, you don't. I don't have any interest in arguing it to death, pretty pointless with you.

Spartanmack · May 11, 2017

Sbee said:
So you didn't answer my question. Are you saying that it was BS that Izzo and DJ said that Ward couldn't go more than 3 or 4 minutes at a time or are you saying he should have played despite being gassed? Which is it?

I say that you only watch half of the game because it's clear that's all you do. You are the classic fan who sees the ball go in the basket and thinks that they're playing well. For example, someone like Winston gets blown by over and over again but he hits a 3 and the comes out of the game and everyone wonders why. I can't wait to hear your complaints about how much Schilling plays next year.

I love Schilling and can't wait to see him back on the court. I was high on him from the beginning when he was a freshman because of the toughness he brings to the team. Go back and try to find a single negative thing I said about him - good luck.

And I've been arguing about DD's minutes more than Ward's but yes, I do think Ward was taken out too much and in too many situations where he was dominating, particularly on offense. I'm not the classic fan who sees the ball go in the basket and thinks we're playing well. I'm the fan who sees that Goins sucks - he provides zero offense and isn't a great defender. If you're going to argue that it was right to bench DD in favor of Goins and site the MTSU game to make your case, maybe it's you who should watch the other end of the floor more closely because MTSU dominated every lineup we put on the floor - including those featuring the gritty defender, Kenny Goins (do you think he's our Mike Griffin?). If you think Goins is a great defender or so much better than DD that we could afford to have his nill if not negative offensive production so DD could be taught a lesson for blowing a ball screen, then maybe it's you who doesn't understand the full picture.

By the way, Nairn is an overrated defender as well. And I do think Winston should have played more - not because he hit an occasional 3, but because like DD, I think it's better to let players play through mistakes and learn from experience and also because he didn't dribble out the shot clock with his head down then try to force something to happen in 4 seconds or less - there I go again, only seeing the offensive half of the game.

gotime909 · May 11, 2017

Spartanmack said:
I love Schilling and can't wait to see him back on the court. I was high on him from the beginning when he was a freshman because of the toughness he brings to the team. Go back and try to find a single negative thing I said about him - good luck.

And I've been arguing about DD's minutes more than Ward's but yes, I do think Ward was taken out too much and in too many situations where he was dominating, particularly on offense. I'm not the classic fan who sees the ball go in the basket and thinks we're playing well. I'm the fan who sees that Goins sucks - he provides zero offense and isn't a great defender. If you're going to argue that it was right to bench DD in favor of Goins and site the MTSU game to make your case, maybe it's you who should watch the other end of the floor more closely because MTSU dominated every lineup we put on the floor - including those featuring the gritty defender, Kenny Goins (do you think he's our Mike Griffin?). If you think Goins is a great defender or so much better than DD that we could afford to have his nill if not negative offensive production so DD could be taught a lesson for blowing a ball screen, then maybe it's you who doesn't understand the full picture.

By the way, Nairn is an overrated defender as well. And I do think Winston should have played more - not because he hit an occasional 3, but because like DD, I think it's better to let players play through mistakes and learn from experience and because he didn't dribble out the shot clock with his head down then try to force something to happen in 4 seconds or less - there I go again, only seeing the offensive half of the game...

I've been with you on this.

Spartanmack · May 11, 2017

Sbee said:
Whatever, I think Izzo benching Clark in that game had a lot to do with the outcome, you don't. I don't have any interest in arguing it to death, pretty pointless with you.

That's fine - we can agree to disagree, just don't be a condescending prick, particularly when you say stupid shit.

Spartanmack · May 11, 2017

gotime909 said:
I've been with you on this.

Thanks - I think you're also in the camp that's sick of seeing Nairn dribble out the shot clock until he goes into full panic and drives out of control or turns the ball over.

To my previous comment I would add Goins may be a better defender than DD or Ward but the whole package Kenny Goins brings is less than the whole package either DD or Ward brings. And regardless of who got DD's minutes, it's obvious DD was WAY under-utilized and WAY under-developed. Izzo fucked that up - if he's willing to lose games to teach someone a lesson for blowing a ball screen then he should be willing to lose games bringing elite talent along and making them better by playing them through mistakes.

Sbee · May 12, 2017

Spartanmack said:
I love Schilling and can't wait to see him back on the court. I was high on him from the beginning when he was a freshman because of the toughness he brings to the team. Go back and try to find a single negative thing I said about him - good luck.

And I've been arguing about DD's minutes more than Ward's but yes, I do think Ward was taken out too much and in too many situations where he was dominating, particularly on offense. I'm not the classic fan who sees the ball go in the basket and thinks we're playing well. I'm the fan who sees that Goins sucks - he provides zero offense and isn't a great defender. If you're going to argue that it was right to bench DD in favor of Goins and site the MTSU game to make your case, maybe it's you who should watch the other end of the floor more closely because MTSU dominated every lineup we put on the floor - including those featuring the gritty defender, Kenny Goins (do you think he's our Mike Griffin?). If you think Goins is a great defender or so much better than DD that we could afford to have his nill if not negative offensive production so DD could be taught a lesson for blowing a ball screen, then maybe it's you who doesn't understand the full picture.

By the way, Nairn is an overrated defender as well. And I do think Winston should have played more - not because he hit an occasional 3, but because like DD, I think it's better to let players play through mistakes and learn from experience and also because he didn't dribble out the shot clock with his head down then try to force something to happen in 4 seconds or less - there I go again, only seeing the offensive half of the game.

I'm not sure if you will love Schilling when he's playing as much or more than Jaren Jackson, 5 star MCD's AA projected as a top 10 pick. Schilling plays ball screens at a NBA level and allows MSU to switch 1-5 when he's out there. He'll play plenty over Ward and Jackson, not sure about Carters game and if it would apply to him. Doing that in the long run will make Jackson and Ward more accountable players and make the team better. To beat a Kansas, Louisville, Kentucky, or UNC down the road, you might have to bench these guys for stretches in January. You may disagree with this philosophy but I'm confident in Izzo's methods.

As for the argument about Ward, still waiting on your answer. I know you're trying to shift the argument back to Davis, which is more of an accountability issue. Ward vs Goins was mostly due to stamina but also ball screen defense, though those two things are related.

Spartanmack · May 14, 2017

Sbee said:
I'm not sure if you will love Schilling when he's playing as much or more than Jaren Jackson, 5 star MCD's AA projected as a top 10 pick. Schilling plays ball screens at a NBA level and allows MSU to switch 1-5 when he's out there. He'll play plenty over Ward and Jackson, not sure about Carters game and if it would apply to him. Doing that in the long run will make Jackson and Ward more accountable players and make the team better. To beat a Kansas, Louisville, Kentucky, or UNC down the road, you might have to bench these guys for stretches in January. You may disagree with this philosophy but I'm confident in Izzo's methods.

As for the argument about Ward, still waiting on your answer. I know you're trying to shift the argument back to Davis, which is more of an accountability issue. Ward vs Goins was mostly due to stamina but also ball screen defense, though those two things are related.

It remains to be seen how Schilling comes back from a year off but If he's playing at the same level as before, I'll be perfectly happy to see him get minutes. You see, there's a huge difference between playing Schilling over a developing player than playing Kenny Goins or Colby Wollenman. You see Kenny Goins may have been slightly better than DD playing ball screens but not only didn't play them at an NBA level, he's not even a great defender - he's just a little better than DD. Again, the complete Goins package was < the DD package - by a lot. And Goins upside is nothing compared to DD's. Ball screens or not, Kenny Goins sucks and underutilizing DD stunted his development.

And it's you who keeps trying to shift the argument - I've always been primarily focused on the mishandling of Davis. I'm not really sure what answer you're even waiting for but if it's the same argument, yeah Kenny Goins shouldn't get the same mutes as Ward. But it's a completely different circumstance since this year's team was so depleted up front by injuries.

And you don't have to tell us you'll never question Izzo's methods - we know. And it's clear the same goes for dantonio too.

Sbee · May 15, 2017

Spartanmack said:
It remains to be seen how Schilling comes back from a year off but If he's playing at the same level as before, I'll be perfectly happy to see him get minutes. You see, there's a huge difference between playing Schilling over a developing player than playing Kenny Goins or Colby Wollenman. You see Kenny Goins may have been slightly better than DD playing ball screens but not only didn't play them at an NBA level, he's not even a great defender - he's just a little better than DD. Again, the complete Goins package was < the DD package - by a lot. And Goins upside is nothing compared to DD's. Ball screens or not, Kenny Goins sucks and underutilizing DD stunted his development.

And it's you who keeps trying to shift the argument - I've always been primarily focused on the mishandling of Davis. I'm not really sure what answer you're even waiting for but if it's the same argument, yeah Kenny Goins shouldn't get the same mutes as Ward. But it's a completely different circumstance since this year's team was so depleted up front by injuries.

And you don't have to tell us you'll never question Izzo's methods - we know. And it's clear the same goes for dantonio too.

Most of my argument for Goins over DD pertained to the MTSU game, of course Goins was hurt in that game but I thought he gave us a better chance on the perimeter against big men with range. As for Colby or Goins over DD during the regular season, the bench is a good teaching tool for a coach who's more concerned with winning a championship than winning individual games early on. I don't always agree with the exact minute division but I agree with the methodology overall.

As for Ward/Goins, I'll contend that Izzo played Ward every minute he possibly could as long as he wasn't a complete and total liability on defense, that was a game to game thing based on who they were facing. I'm 100% on board with that, if Ward can tighten it up defensively next year he could be an all american level player, though he won't be the centerpiece of the offense like most AA's are.

gotime909 · May 15, 2017

This debate hits on both of the things that I believe flaw Izzo. His soft spot for walk on type talent and his maddening decisions with talented freshmen.

Spartanmack · May 18, 2017

Sbee said:
Most of my argument for Goins over DD pertained to the MTSU game, of course Goins was hurt in that game but I thought he gave us a better chance on the perimeter against big men with range. As for Colby or Goins over DD during the regular season, the bench is a good teaching tool for a coach who's more concerned with winning a championship than winning individual games early on. I don't always agree with the exact minute division but I agree with the methodology overall.

As for Ward/Goins, I'll contend that Izzo played Ward every minute he possibly could as long as he wasn't a complete and total liability on defense, that was a game to game thing based on who they were facing. I'm 100% on board with that, if Ward can tighten it up defensively next year he could be an all american level player, though he won't be the centerpiece of the offense like most AA's are.

well, then i guess i don't understand why you're arguing because my point is that DD was underplayed all season long, not just the MTSU game. And your next point is a strawman because it's not a choice between losing a few early games to contend for a championship by benching a guy during the regular season and winning a few early games at the expense of a championship by giving him more playing time. That doesn't even make sense - playing DD through his mistakes early doesn't necessarily make you more likely to win those early games. But by not playing him, he's not going to develop so it's probably more likely that you ARE decreasing your odds of winning later games in the B1G and NCAA tournament by not giving him crucial experience - especially if your alternatives are Kenny Goins and Colby Wollenman.

gotime909 · Jun 3, 2017

And the Brian Bowen recruiting soap opera comes to an end. The "MSU lock" that swayed to Arizona, then to Oregon, then to Creigton ends up at.........Louisville lol. What a clown

Now usually I don't take shots at kids in recruiting, but fuck this self centered douche!

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