MSU basektball recruiting

johnny2x2x · Apr 26, 2017

The UNLV pick is about $. His uncle had ties there and was offered a job. Thought Oregon would land him with us coming in 2nd. But this turned dirty and UNLV paid cash and offered jobs to his family in the casinos.

Smith should pick Illinois tonight as he wants to be a starter in his hometown team.

Not sure how, but Ben Carter still might get a 6th year. We'll land a grad transfer wing.

Bowen will end up at Creiughton too.

gotime909 · Apr 26, 2017

Didn't your boy Scherer have all these guys crystal balled to MSU?

johnny2x2x · Apr 26, 2017

gotime909 said:
Didn't your boy Scherer have all these guys crystal balled to MSU?

No. He has Smith to Illinois, and I think cloudy on Bowen.

I said earlier in this thread that Jackson has a higher upside than McCoy. I said that before Jackson was ranked higher than McCoy. And this is true, Jackson is longer, younger, and is more skilled. And despite what mock drafts say, Jackson's very young age and his family's wealth make him likely to stay 2 years. But McCoy is more ready to be a dominant player in the paint this coming year. He's already 245 lbs and is a monster on the boards. Izzo would have loved him and he would have started over Jackson. McCoy would have done more to help our title chances in 2018 than Jackson does.

Schilling returning is huge, we have plenty of size now. The potential weakness we have is at wing. Would love a grad transfer combo guard who is a good on ball defender, can bring the ball up court, and can hit the occasional 3. Team is loaded right now, but a wing off the bench is needed.

MSUMatt28 · Apr 26, 2017

I don't view losing McCoy as any big deal. Sure he's a highly rated recruit, but where would he have played? It sounds like Jackson will need to be on the court early and often, we still have Ward, Schilling returning from injury, and Tillman added to the mix for depth. At least he didn't go to any team that would be a threat to us in the rankings or another Big Ten team.

However we could use a bit more in the backcourt and/or on the wing. So probably not getting Bowen or Smith could hurt a bit there (and watch us now get a bunch of injuries in the backcourt next year).

johnny2x2x · Apr 26, 2017

MSUMatt28 said:
I don't view losing McCoy as any big deal. Sure he's a highly rated recruit, but where would he have played? It sounds like Jackson will need to be on the court early and often, we still have Ward, Schilling returning from injury, and Tillman added to the mix for depth. At least he didn't go to any team that would be a threat to us in the rankings or another Big Ten team.

However we could use a bit more in the backcourt and/or on the wing. So probably not getting Bowen or Smith could hurt a bit there (and watch us now get a bunch of injuries in the backcourt next year).

Smith is a good fit, but if we want to win a title next year I think adding a grad transfer wing might be preferable. I want an Alvin Ellis type player, guy that plays good defense on the perimeter, can handle the ball occasionally, is tough, and can hit the occasional 3.

Perimeter defense is my only concern. Ahrens will play more of the 3 and he's not a good perimeter defender. McQuaid actually turned into a good defender and I think him missing the off season last year with surgery hurt his development. He could really make a jump this season. We heard Langford was supposed to be a lock down defender, but at 6-5, 215 lbs I am not sure he's not too big to guard quick 2 guards.

It's going to be a totally different team next year, all the sudden all of our guys will be covering smaller players rather than bigger players. They're bound to have some growing pains. Bridges was just learning to defend 4s in the post, now he's going to be guarding 3s on the perimeter all game. Ahrens played the 4 for us, now he's going to be expected to play defense on the wing. Should be awesome for Ward though, he'll get have other bigs to help him.

The key to being great rather than really good IMO is Cassius Winston. What his body looks like after an off season in the weight room is going to be really telling. He was spectacular at times last season, but when he played older and stronger guards he got pushed around at both ends. If he comes in stronger and more explosive, look out, he is going to be a force.

gotime909 · Apr 26, 2017

Mark Smith to Illinois.

Man, I just can't believe that Izzo couldn't sell any of these 3 guys on being a piece of a contending team. I can live with losing to Duke, Kentucky, Kansas...but what the fuck? UNLV, Illinois, Missouri, Marquette?????????? This guy really needs to hire a closer for his recruiting.

Spartanmack · Apr 27, 2017

johnny2x2x said:
I'll assume you're being sarcastic.

Top 50 recruits brought into the Big Ten the last 2 classes:
Tom Izzo-5
All other Big 10 coaches combined-2

Top 40 recruits brought into the Big Ten the last 2 classes:
Tom Izzo- 4
All other Big 10 coaches combined- 0

McDonald's All Americans brought into the Big Ten the last 3 classes:
Tom Izzo - 4
All other Big 10 coaches combined- 3

He's doing OK.

who cares about comparing to "all other B1G coaches combined"? there aren't any other consistently elite programs in the B1G- that's not the bar to measure an elite coach by. And like Gotime says, if you pick a more appropriate time horizaon, like going back 5 or 10 years, Izzo's numbers don't look as good. Looking back a bit further, Thad Matta is easily the best recruiter in the B1G - Izzo has been playing catch up the last few but he's still trailing and nobody has nearly as many high profile misses.

MSUMatt28 · Apr 27, 2017

While missing on highly rated recruits can never be considered a good thing, anything beyond Bridges coming back should be considered gravy at this point.

I suppose Bowen is still a possibility, however remote. It seems he's pretty much bent on going somewhere to get the minutes/shots that will put him in one and done land. Not sure when all these kids will learn that NBA scouts don't care about your minutes played or scoring average. They care abour your skills, and guys have been at Kentucky averaging less than 6 ppg and still able to be One and Done.

Spartanmack · Apr 28, 2017

MSUMatt28 said:
While missing on highly rated recruits can never be considered a good thing, anything beyond Bridges coming back should be considered gravy at this point.

I suppose Bowen is still a possibility, however remote. It seems he's pretty much bent on going somewhere to get the minutes/shots that will put him in one and done land. Not sure when all these kids will learn that NBA scouts don't care about your minutes played or scoring average. They care abour your skills, and guys have been at Kentucky averaging less than 6 ppg and still able to be One and Done.

after watching izzo under-utilize Davis and Ward the last two seasons, I'd be very leary of committing to MSU if I wanted to be on the floor, let alone be a key part of the offense. I hope he commits and stays at least 2 years but I can't say I blame any elite recruit from balking at an MSU offer for those reasons.

Sbee · May 1, 2017

Spartanmack said:
after watching izzo under-utilize Davis and Ward the last two seasons, I'd be very leary of committing to MSU if I wanted to be on the floor, let alone be a key part of the offense. I hope he commits and stays at least 2 years but I can't say I blame any elite recruit from balking at an MSU offer for those reasons.

Bowen and his camp see him as a one and done player, they want a program that?s going to showcase him so he gets the minutes/shots to up his profile. Of course every kid looks at roster situations before making their commitment, but to drag it out until May is ridiculous. I?m sure that MSU would take his commitment if he were willing to come here and buy in, but contact between the Bowen camp and MSU is almost non existent the last I?ve heard. I?d put my money on Creighton or possibly Depaul, they?re moving into a new facility and they just hired Bowens coach from La Lumiere, of course Bowen has contacts with coaches all over the place so that?s not a big factor. I don?t see him getting more than 18 mintues at MSU, I?d be surprised if he earned the starting job over Langford anyway, he could, but it?s not a guarantee.

Also, as far as MSU and freshmen, those are two bad examples. Izzo played Ward for every minute he possibly could, his ball screen defense was awful last year, he wasn?t in good enough of shape to stay low, move his feet quickly, hedge, etc. when he got tired he got worse, slower, other teams knew that and attacked it. As for DD, he played quite a bit for a freshmen, big men are almost always projects and DD was as well. DD averaged 18 minutes, about the same as Zach Randolph. Karl Anthony Towns and Joel Embid played 23. Big men rarely play 30+ and it doesn?t hurt their draft stock. Also, DD wasn?t good on the perimeter against stretch 4?s and 5?s, which is why he was on the bench against MTSU.

Spartanmack · May 1, 2017

Sbee said:
Bowen and his camp see him as a one and done player, they want a program that?s going to showcase him so he gets the minutes/shots to up his profile. Of course every kid looks at roster situations before making their commitment, but to drag it out until May is ridiculous. I?m sure that MSU would take his commitment if he were willing to come here and buy in, but contact between the Bowen camp and MSU is almost non existent the last I?ve heard. I?d put my money on Creighton or possibly Depaul, they?re moving into a new facility and they just hired Bowens coach from La Lumiere, of course Bowen has contacts with coaches all over the place so that?s not a big factor. I don?t see him getting more than 18 mintues at MSU, I?d be surprised if he earned the starting job over Langford anyway, he could, but it?s not a guarantee.

Also, as far as MSU and freshmen, those are two bad examples. Izzo played Ward for every minute he possibly could, his ball screen defense was awful last year, he wasn?t in good enough of shape to stay low, move his feet quickly, hedge, etc. when he got tired he got worse, slower, other teams knew that and attacked it. As for DD, he played quite a bit for a freshmen, big men are almost always projects and DD was as well. DD averaged 18 minutes, about the same as Zach Randolph. Karl Anthony Towns and Joel Embid played 23. Big men rarely play 30+ and it doesn?t hurt their draft stock. Also, DD wasn?t good on the perimeter against stretch 4?s and 5?s, which is why he was on the bench against MTSU.

I don't agree on DD - there's a canyon sized gap between 18 and 30+ minutes. he clearly could have played more without getting over-used. and it's not just the minutes - the timing and the caliber of player that got his minutes were equally baffling. KAT got 18 minutes because he was spelled by McD AAs if not other NBA talent - his backups would start on nearly every team in CBB. DD was getting yanked after short stints because of a minor error and being replaced by a future pediatrician or a guy who will be selling F-150s at Fowlerville Ford. as for ward, thats a little tougher to analyze for a number of reasons but he seemed to get yanked when he was rolling and sat for severalinutea while games were swinging against us.

MSUMatt28 · May 1, 2017

Ward may have been bad on the pick and roll, but with Goins in there, all 6-6 of him, teams could just throw in down on the block instead (where Ward had more of a fighting chance). Basically pick your poison. Not Goins fault that he was undersized and had to be miscast as a center, but it is what it is (was).

But at least with Ward we'd get something back on the other end much more often.

Sbee · May 2, 2017

MSUMatt28 said:
Ward may have been bad on the pick and roll, but with Goins in there, all 6-6 of him, teams could just throw in down on the block instead (where Ward had more of a fighting chance). Basically pick your poison. Not Goins fault that he was undersized and had to be miscast as a center, but it is what it is (was).

But at least with Ward we'd get something back on the other end much more often.

As for Goins, he was a walk on who was supposed to get a small amount of minutes but he?s not the kind of player that would typically play a large role at MSU. The situation dictated that he play extended minutes this year due to injuries and the unexpected early entry of Deyonta Davis. Ward can?t play 30+ minutes, he wasn?t in the shape to play at the pace and level that MSU needed, if we were a team that walked the ball up the court and played a zone, maybe, but with our style it just wasn?t possible. He did give up a lot on defense and got worse as he got fatigued, teams knew that and attacked him. Yes he did give you something on offense but a rested Goins was better than a fatigued Ward and Izzo did a good job of splitting the minutes. When Ward was tired, he not only allowed easy looks on the high ball screen but also was more likely to pick up fouls, to get the best out of him Izzo had to watch his minutes. It was actually a masterful coaching job to get to the tournament given the fact that you lose two bigs in October and you lose Bridges for 7 games.

Sbee · May 2, 2017

Spartanmack said:
I don't agree on DD - there's a canyon sized gap between 18 and 30+ minutes. he clearly could have played more without getting over-used. and it's not just the minutes - the timing and the caliber of player that got his minutes were equally baffling. KAT got 18 minutes because he was spelled by McD AAs if not other NBA talent - his backups would start on nearly every team in CBB. DD was getting yanked after short stints because of a minor error and being replaced by a future pediatrician or a guy who will be selling F-150s at Fowlerville Ford. as for ward, thats a little tougher to analyze for a number of reasons but he seemed to get yanked when he was rolling and sat for severalinutea while games were swinging against us.

A lot of that depended on the opponent, if you had a big man that could shoot you were better off with Goins in there than DD because he could move his feet. Goins at least stood a chance to check Upshaw from MTSU, DD got beat over and over, I don't think Izzo wants to lose a game to stave off negative recruiting.

MSUMatt28 · May 2, 2017

Sbee said:
As for Goins, he was a walk on who was supposed to get a small amount of minutes but he?s not the kind of player that would typically play a large role at MSU. The situation dictated that he play extended minutes this year due to injuries and the unexpected early entry of Deyonta Davis. Ward can?t play 30+ minutes, he wasn?t in the shape to play at the pace and level that MSU needed, if we were a team that walked the ball up the court and played a zone, maybe, but with our style it just wasn?t possible. He did give up a lot on defense and got worse as he got fatigued, teams knew that and attacked him. Yes he did give you something on offense but a rested Goins was better than a fatigued Ward and Izzo did a good job of splitting the minutes. When Ward was tired, he not only allowed easy looks on the high ball screen but also was more likely to pick up fouls, to get the best out of him Izzo had to watch his minutes. It was actually a masterful coaching job to get to the tournament given the fact that you lose two bigs in October and you lose Bridges for 7 games.

The minutes were too split in my opinion. On the year it was like 20 mpg for Ward 18 for Goins. Ward had 11 games where he exceeded 24 minutes so I am thinking his conditioning would be been fine if say that split was more like 23 and 15 on the season (or maybe 24 and 16 and Van Dyke never sees time at the 5). I get that foul trouble affects that at times and Izzo like everyone else wants to automatically sit guys once they get 2 in the first half which I've never quite understood.

But there were numerous times where Ward sat in order for Izzo to "teach him a lesson". Maybe those lessons needed to be taught in the grander scheme of things. I don't know. But I also know that he averaged 1.5 bpg which is pretty good in only 20 minutes per game. So his defense in the post wasn't that terrible in every way.

At any rate, it will sure be nice this year, even without McCoy in the mix, to see us be able to trot out big body after big body at the 4 and 5 no matter what the situation (and still be able to use Bridges at the 4 on occasion if we ever need to play small).

MSUMatt28 · May 2, 2017

Sbee said:
Bowen and his camp see him as a one and done player, they want a program that?s going to showcase him so he gets the minutes/shots to up his profile. Of course every kid looks at roster situations before making their commitment, but to drag it out until May is ridiculous. I?m sure that MSU would take his commitment if he were willing to come here and buy in, but contact between the Bowen camp and MSU is almost non existent the last I?ve heard. I?d put my money on Creighton or possibly Depaul, they?re moving into a new facility and they just hired Bowens coach from La Lumiere, of course Bowen has contacts with coaches all over the place so that?s not a big factor. I don?t see him getting more than 18 mintues at MSU, I?d be surprised if he earned the starting job over Langford anyway, he could, but it?s not a guarantee.

Also, as far as MSU and freshmen, those are two bad examples. Izzo played Ward for every minute he possibly could, his ball screen defense was awful last year, he wasn?t in good enough of shape to stay low, move his feet quickly, hedge, etc. when he got tired he got worse, slower, other teams knew that and attacked it. As for DD, he played quite a bit for a freshmen, big men are almost always projects and DD was as well. DD averaged 18 minutes, about the same as Zach Randolph. Karl Anthony Towns and Joel Embid played 23. Big men rarely play 30+ and it doesn?t hurt their draft stock. Also, DD wasn?t good on the perimeter against stretch 4?s and 5?s, which is why he was on the bench against MTSU.

And this is what I've never understood when it comes to the way some high school recruits think. If you simply want to play more sooner because playing beats sitting the bench, then ok. But as far as draft position scouts are smart enough to look past minutes and shots per game and look at how efficient a player is and what kind of skills they have. Heck, Karl Anthony Towns barely averaged 20 mpg and 10 ppg on that loaded Kentucky team, but still went #1. So in that regard if you are playing a role playing 15-20 mpg on a top 10 team instead of playing big minutes on a bubble NCAA tournament team, it matters little. And if you aren't good enough to grab that kind of a role on a top 10 team, then you probably aren't good enough to be a one and done anyway.

gotime909 · May 2, 2017

I'd bet that there wouldn't be a single other coach that would have played Goins over Ward. If you don't play these kids through the mistakes, how do they learn? I would've been fine with a 25/15 minute split with Ward/Goins, not 18/18/4 with Ward/Goins/VanDyk. That's a HUGE DIFFERENCE

Spartanmack · May 3, 2017

Sbee said:
A lot of that depended on the opponent, if you had a big man that could shoot you were better off with Goins in there than DD because he could move his feet. Goins at least stood a chance to check Upshaw from MTSU, DD got beat over and over, I don't think Izzo wants to lose a game to stave off negative recruiting.

but it's more than just one game and don't forget- we got our asses beat by MTSU with DD on the bench while getting less than zero offense from goins and wollenman. that kinda blows up your last line a bit. anyone who thinks Goins gives us a better chance to win any game is nuts, including Izzo. I think izzo sat DD as much or more to show he wouldn't tolerate mistakes but goins and wollenman didn't make any fewer blunders - maybe he thought DD would stay another year because if he wasn't getting minutes in college he must not be NBA ready. limiting minutes and yanking someone every time they screw up doesn't seem to be a very effective way to develop a player's talent. give him the minutes, maybe not 30+ but a lot more than 18. let him make a few mistakes and maybe take it out on him in practice but don't put goins and wollenman in for meaningful minutes just bc DD got beat off the dribble.

Sbee · May 3, 2017

MSUMatt28 said:
The minutes were too split in my opinion. On the year it was like 20 mpg for Ward 18 for Goins. Ward had 11 games where he exceeded 24 minutes so I am thinking his conditioning would be been fine if say that split was more like 23 and 15 on the season (or maybe 24 and 16 and Van Dyke never sees time at the 5). I get that foul trouble affects that at times and Izzo like everyone else wants to automatically sit guys once they get 2 in the first half which I've never quite understood.

But there were numerous times where Ward sat in order for Izzo to "teach him a lesson". Maybe those lessons needed to be taught in the grander scheme of things. I don't know. But I also know that he averaged 1.5 bpg which is pretty good in only 20 minutes per game. So his defense in the post wasn't that terrible in every way.

At any rate, it will sure be nice this year, even without McCoy in the mix, to see us be able to trot out big body after big body at the 4 and 5 no matter what the situation (and still be able to use Bridges at the 4 on occasion if we ever need to play small).

After this season I said that Nick Ward will be an All American in 2018, that was before I knew Bridges was coming back. There won't be quite as many shots for him and it's really hard to have 2 1st team guys on the same team, but Ward will be an extremely productive player. His stats on offense per 40 minutes were out of this world good, especially drawing something like 9 fouls per 40 minutes, which is the highest in NCAA basketball in the last 14 years. We will have an embarrassment of riches in the front court next year, Ward won't always be guarded by the biggest/best post defender on the other team and Jackson has enough range to draw defenders away from the post as well.

The priorities for Ward this off season are conditioning, ball screen defense (will improve with conditioning), and being able to handle double teams better. If he can find open shooters on the perimeter when he recognizes the dig/double coming, he'll be lethal. This is what Purdue did very well last year.

Sbee · May 3, 2017

MSUMatt28 said:
And this is what I've never understood when it comes to the way some high school recruits think. If you simply want to play more sooner because playing beats sitting the bench, then ok. But as far as draft position scouts are smart enough to look past minutes and shots per game and look at how efficient a player is and what kind of skills they have. Heck, Karl Anthony Towns barely averaged 20 mpg and 10 ppg on that loaded Kentucky team, but still went #1. So in that regard if you are playing a role playing 15-20 mpg on a top 10 team instead of playing big minutes on a bubble NCAA tournament team, it matters little. And if you aren't good enough to grab that kind of a role on a top 10 team, then you probably aren't good enough to be a one and done anyway.

How about thinking if you're not good enough to start over Josh Langford you're not going to make in the NBA after 1yr? nothing against Langford but he's not exactly Dearron Fox.

It sounds like it's almost all but a done deal to DePaul anyway, they just hired his HS coach and AAU coach, Bowen just retweeted a picture of their new arena. Garbage program, but if it's what his camp wants, that's where he's going.

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