Today's example of how Atheists are so awesome!

tinselwolverine · Mar 25, 2014

There might be two funnier things in the world than "evangelical" atheists, or religious people claiming that atheists came to atheism through "brainwashing and indoctrination"...but I can't think of any right now off the top of my head.

KAWDUP · Mar 25, 2014

I agree with Tinsel and Monster in the same thread where religion has been mentioned. Will wonders never cease.

How in God's name did that happen? :*)

Michchamp · Mar 25, 2014

KAWDUP said:
I took liberties with the meaning of a word? Interesting! What pray tell did you mean by it? If you meant some sort of violence against a group due to their religion, are you really going to equate your example of that schoolchild, to the Inquisition? If it must have the added component, "in the name of my atheistic belief system", I still don't see you using the word consistently. Your meaning is flopping all around, so if I took any liberties, it is much less than you did.

...

I would not say that asking someone to take down a tweet is "persecuting" them... and that's assuming Walker was tweeting a Biblical verse out of some sincere religious belief, not simply pandering to voters (a majority of whom are christian) by trolling atheists on twitter... which was probably more likely the case.

and zyxt's entire premise in this thread (it's stupid, but that's beside the point) was a response to a similarly named thread of mine here. The persecution of scott walker is laughable compared to what that kid endured.

KAWDUP · Mar 25, 2014

michchamp said:
I would not say that asking someone to take down a tweet is "persecuting" them... and that's assuming Walker was tweeting a Biblical verse out of some sincere religious belief, not simply pandering to voters (a majority of whom are christian) by trolling atheists on twitter... which was probably more likely the case.

and zyxt's entire premise in this thread (it's stupid, but that's beside the point) was a response to a similarly named thread of mine here. The persecution of scott walker is laughable compared to what that kid endured.

hmm . . . Huffington Post probably says ask, Breitbart probably says, demanded, and then proceeded to harass him about it. If you want to do the research to find out what was actually said, I guess I might have no choice but to take "persecute" off the table, and then, while it would be less of an example for this thread, it would still make me laugh hysterically.

BTW - I still have no idea what you are talking about with the kid, but was it worse than what has been done by educators/administrators going the other way "persecuting" some kid for a lunch packed by parents, or suspending them from school for praying, or telling them they won't graduate if they mention God in their valedictorian speech? If it was worse, then what do you expect - I take liberties with the word "persecute". :*)

Edit: Your example is just another in the long line of stupid people hurting someone else in the name of their own misguided beliefs. Still not the fault of Christianity or God, stupid people are just that.

Michchamp · Mar 25, 2014

tinselwolverine said:
There might be two funnier things in the world than "evangelical" atheists, or religious people claiming that atheists came to atheism through "brainwashing and indoctrination"...but I can't think of any right now off the top of my head.

I've done nothing but be brainwashed and indoctrinated my whole life.

12 years of catholic school brainwashed me to be a conservative catholic, but 4 years of college brainwashing after that turned me into liberal atheist.

it was more effective brainwashing... the second on got on campus, I was surrounded by 4 atheist upper-classmen who handed me a pamphlet titled "Atheism and You" and followed me everywhere I went for the first week, filling my head with stories of atheism.

After that, class started; we'd go hear the professor start each class with a comment that "Atheism was Good," and thanked Atheism for everything. Then we learned about atheism: said atheist prayers, did the atheist march, told atheist stories, and sang atheist songs. After that we went out and committed adultery (even though we weren't married, but whatever), and engaged in other such evil behavior, like murdering, stealing, and embezzling funds from churches. We received credit for all that, and at graduation, we received a diploma in atheism.

Gulo Blue · Mar 25, 2014

michchamp said:
I've done nothing but be brainwashed and indoctrinated my whole life.

12 years of catholic school brainwashed me to be a conservative catholic, but 4 years of college brainwashing after that turned me into liberal atheist.

it was more effective brainwashing... the second on got on campus, I was surrounded by 4 atheist upper-classmen who handed me a pamphlet titled "Atheism and You" and followed me everywhere I went for the first week, filling my head with stories of atheism.

After that, class started; we'd go hear the professor start each class with a comment that "Atheism was Good," and thanked Atheism for everything. Then we learned about atheism: said atheist prayers, did the atheist march, told atheist stories, and sang atheist songs. After that we went out and committed adultery (even though we weren't married, but whatever), and engaged in other such evil behavior, like murdering, stealing, and embezzling funds from churches. We received credit for all that, and at graduation, we received a diploma in atheism.

That's how they getcha.

KAWDUP · Mar 25, 2014

michchamp said:
I've done nothing but be brainwashed and indoctrinated my whole life.

12 years of catholic school brainwashed me to be a conservative catholic, but 4 years of college brainwashing after that turned me into liberal atheist.

it was more effective brainwashing... the second on got on campus, I was surrounded by 4 atheist upper-classmen who handed me a pamphlet titled "Atheism and You" and followed me everywhere I went for the first week, filling my head with stories of atheism.

After that, class started; we'd go hear the professor start each class with a comment that "Atheism was Good," and thanked Atheism for everything. Then we learned about atheism: said atheist prayers, did the atheist march, told atheist stories, and sang atheist songs. After that we went out and committed adultery (even though we weren't married, but whatever), and engaged in other such evil behavior, like murdering, stealing, and embezzling funds from churches. We received credit for all that, and at graduation, we received a diploma in atheism.

Man, you too can't let go of when someone else doesn't quite have the word correct. I think you'all mean fornication, but hey it means you had sex with someone that would get you called a sinner.

Brainwashing can occur in many ways - I'm sure those elitists of academia were all about reinforcing your religion, but then again why would they, they were atheists. :*)

Monster · Mar 25, 2014

KAWDUP said:
hmm . . . Huffington Post probably says ask, Breitbart probably says, demanded, and then proceeded to harass him about it. If you want to do the research to find out what was actually said, I guess I might have no choice but to take "persecute" off the table, and then, while it would be less of an example for this thread, it would still make me laugh hysterically.

BTW - I still have no idea what you are talking about with the kid, but was it worse than what has been done by educators/administrators going the other way "persecuting" some kid for a lunch packed by parents, or suspending them from school for praying, or telling them they won't graduate if they mention God in their valedictorian speech? If it was worse, then what do you expect - I take liberties with the word "persecute". :*)

Edit: Your example is just another in the long line of stupid people hurting someone else in the name of their own misguided beliefs. Still not the fault of Christianity or God, stupid people are just that.

Where did you hear these things? Why would an educator do anything to kids with packed lunches? That's just a dick move. I know some schools frown on packed lunches because they aren't always healthy, but obviously that's still dickish.

Not sure that a kid has ever been suspended for praying at school. I know that school mandated prayer or teacher led prayer is not allowed, but personal or student led prayer is perfectly acceptable. Any school that suspended a kid for praying should be firing people immediately.

I vaguely remember something about a school cutting of the mic of a valedictorian...so I just looked it up to refresh my memory. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...oning-god-graduation-speech-article-1.1369065

"Student speakers were told that if their speeches deviated from the prior-reviewed material, the microphone would be turned off, regardless of content," the school said in a statement on its Facebook page. "When one student?s speech deviated from the prior-reviewed speech, the microphone was turned off, pursuant to District policy and procedure."

I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about, so if it's not then let me know.

Michchamp · Mar 25, 2014

Monster said:
Where did you hear these things? Why would an educator do anything to kids with packed lunches? That's just a dick move. I know some schools frown on packed lunches because they aren't always healthy, but obviously that's still dickish.

Not sure that a kid has ever been suspended for praying at school. I know that school mandated prayer or teacher led prayer is not allowed, but personal or student led prayer is perfectly acceptable. Any school that suspended a kid for praying should be firing people immediately.

I vaguely remember something about a school cutting of the mic of a valedictorian...so I just looked it up to refresh my memory. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...oning-god-graduation-speech-article-1.1369065

"Student speakers were told that if their speeches deviated from the prior-reviewed material, the microphone would be turned off, regardless of content," the school said in a statement on its Facebook page. "When one student?s speech deviated from the prior-reviewed speech, the microphone was turned off, pursuant to District policy and procedure."

I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about, so if it's not then let me know.

he's confusing "not giving kids a platform to preach or discuss their own religious beliefs" with "persecuting them"

he apparently doesn't see how saying "You can't lead a prayer during a public school assembly" isn't the same thing as a teacher telling a kid his buddhist religion is stupid, in a classroom adorned with pictures of Jesus Christ...

TheVictors · Mar 25, 2014

Not directed at anyone on the board, but a lot of "atheists" are really "agnostic" and more in rejection of whatever formal, organized religion their parents introduced them to.

The vast number of Christian denominations alone also shows the vast spectrum of belief derived from one source (and then there is Judiasm)

Ever hear the one about the insomniac, agnostic dyslexic...?

Stays up all night contemplating the existence of Dog!

Thumb · Mar 25, 2014

Agnostics often get lumped in with atheists, and I know several people who think they make no difference (religious Christians), simply because those people have said if you don't believe in god/jesus then you're an atheist. Even people who are agnostic and will admit the possibility of a higher being. the same people also have told me Pagans, Hindu's and Buddhists are atheists too because they don't believe in the 1 true god, unlike Jews, Muslims, and Christians.

Monster · Mar 25, 2014

Thumb said:
Agnostics often get lumped in with atheists, and I know several people who think they make no difference (religious Christians), simply because those people have said if you don't believe in god/jesus then you're an atheist. Even people who are agnostic and will admit the possibility of a higher being. the same people also have told me Pagans, Hindu's and Buddhists are atheists too because they don't believe in the 1 true god, unlike Jews, Muslims, and Christians.

agnostic atheist - someone who DOES NOT believe in a god or gods, but does not claim there is no god with 100% certainty.

agnostic theist - believes that a god or gods exist, but does not claim that there is a 100% certainty that they do.

gnostic atheist - someone who knows for sure that there is or has never been a god or gods.

gnostic theist - someone who knows for sure that there is a god or gods.

not being a christian does not make you an atheist. It just makes you a follower of another religion. I am an agnostic atheist. I don't believe in any of these man-made gods, but I'm not ignorant enough to say there is absolutely no possibility of a god. I'd say the chances of a god are very poor, but I'm not going to say there is no chance.

TheVictors · Mar 25, 2014

That's my simple point: you can have doubts without being Athiest

(again, not talking about anyone here or in general if you identify as athiest...).

I've just seen so much crap, growing up in the Church. I've seen ministers manipulate and scam and then there's the whole disgusting aspect of child abuse covered by the Catholic Church. I know once devout Christians turned Buddhist and have a sister raised under the same roof as I was describing herself as Athiest (which our Mom the Minister fine with her choice and beliefs) and find myself incredibly annoyed by both Holy Rollers who know it all, as well as arch-Religion bashers who generalize any person of any faith as ignorant or stupid.

In the end, I find most who are doubtful are so because of the cynicism and hypocrisy of established religion and not so much because of a sincere personal conviction in there being NO higher power (whether Karma, God, an Earthen faith like many native Americans ...dismissed now as Hippie crap).

Just saying.

My favorite post so far is the one saying everyone is born without any concept of religion. Because its true.

KAWDUP · Mar 26, 2014

michchamp said:
he's confusing "not giving kids a platform to preach or discuss their own religious beliefs" with "persecuting them"

he apparently doesn't see how saying "You can't lead a prayer during a public school assembly" isn't the same thing as a teacher telling a kid his buddhist religion is stupid, in a classroom adorned with pictures of Jesus Christ...

Yeah, you're right - I am confused. Typical stupidity, when you have nothing else. Just like you are the biggest tool on these boards. Doesn't make it right, of course, just as you saying ignorant things about me are not correct, but hey, what the hell do you care?

I suppose you missed this comment:

Your example is just another in the long line of stupid people hurting someone else in the name of their own misguided beliefs. Still not the fault of Christianity or God, stupid people are just that.

So is it apparent yet? Probably not, but I guess I really don't expect much else from you.

Michchamp · Mar 26, 2014

KAWDUP said:
...
I suppose you missed this comment:

Your example is just another in the long line of stupid people hurting someone else in the name of their own misguided beliefs. Still not the fault of Christianity or God, stupid people are just that.

So is it apparent yet? Probably not, but I guess I really don't expect much else from you.

no, I saw it. I never said it was.

yes, Christianity or God aren't the problem here... Christians are the problem. as violating the principle of the separation of church and state is widespread, especially in the south... there are many problematic christians!

I have problems with the concepts of Christianity and God, but those are philosophical, not political. I know those have been discussed ad nauseum on this board by myself and others, and I don't see the point of rehashing those here.

I don't see how an atheist asking Scott Walker to take down a tweet or "getting his/her panties in a bunch" and "persecuting him" to use your characterization of the event excuses what I was talking about in the other thread that zyxt made this one in response to. and his response in this one was stupid, but that's beside the point.

tinselwolverine · Mar 26, 2014

Monster said:
agnostic atheist - someone who DOES NOT believe in a god or gods, but does not claim there is no god with 100% certainty.

agnostic theist - believes that a god or gods exist, but does not claim that there is a 100% certainty that they do.

What if someone is right in the middle? Is that an unaffiliated agnostic?

I know some people who call themselves "deists;" I guess they probably fall into the category of agnostic theists.

They have no religious affiliation and do not claim to know for certainty that there is a higher power, but their opinion is "unless someone can prove to me that something can come from nothing, then I'll believe that there is some kind of higher power or creative force."

TheVictors · Mar 26, 2014

I see "Spiritual" often

Michchamp · Mar 26, 2014

TheVictors said:
...

Just saying.

My favorite post so far is the one saying everyone is born without any concept of religion. Because its true.

that's basically why I would consider myself an atheist, not a agnostic.

that whole "you can't prove God exists..." nonsense... TRUE... but the ones asserting his existence have the burden of proof, and have failed to meet that burden... so why should I even consider his existence a valid question?

So screw that, and screw them... I'm an atheist, just like I was when I was born.

Gulo Blue · Mar 26, 2014

tinselwolverine said:
What if someone is right in the middle? Is that an unaffiliated agnostic?

I know some people who call themselves "deists;" I guess they probably fall into the category of agnostic theists.

They have no religious affiliation and do not claim to know for certainty that there is a higher power, but their opinion is "unless someone can prove to me that something can come from nothing, then I'll believe that there is some kind of higher power or creative force."

While there isn't a well known term that I'm aware of, I think something along the lines of "impressed" or "awestruck agnostic" might be appropriate for describing some people. Something for people willing to entertain a variety of ideas, but their leanings average out somewhere around Spinoza. I'm thinking of scientists and engineers specifically.

With regard to wanting to know how something can come from nothing, I'd like to know how free will can exists in the absence of supernatural forces. If it doesn't exist, why do we perceive it? Why would we develop this illusion?

Gulo Blue · Mar 26, 2014

michchamp said:
that's basically why I would consider myself an atheist, not a agnostic.

that whole "you can't prove God exists..." nonsense... TRUE... but the ones asserting his existence have the burden of proof, and have failed to meet that burden... so why should I even consider his existence a valid question?

So screw that, and screw them... I'm an atheist, just like I was when I was born.

Burden of proof is a useful concept in law, where a determination must be made and people must jointly take action with imperfect knowledge. It does nothing to identify truth. Every discovery we've made was preceded by a period where treating the burden of truth doctrine as an indication of truth would get you a wrong answer.

...or...we can look to https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

The burden of proof lies with someone who is making a claim, and is not upon anyone else to disprove. The inability, or disinclination, to disprove a claim does not render that claim valid, nor give it any credence whatsoever. However it is important to note that we can never be certain of anything, and so we must assign value to any claim based on the available evidence, and to dismiss something on the basis that it hasn't been proven beyond all doubt is also fallacious reasoning.

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