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Old 10-19-2017, 10:24 PM   #21
tomdalton22   tomdalton22 is online now
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I was hoping for a "swing for the fences manager"....not a has been.

Oh well...like many have said...it really doesn't matter. This guy will lose 90 games a year for 2 years and be gone.



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Old 10-19-2017, 11:28 PM   #22
sggatecl   sggatecl is offline
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I'm hoping he will command the respect of the team a lot more than Brad seemed to. At the very least he better be more demanding of the type of effort and competitiveness we expect to see from a young team.
I'll never understand how a fan gauges such a thing. How do you differentiate playing bad and not trying/caring?
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Old 10-20-2017, 02:08 AM   #23
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I'll never understand how a fan gauges such a thing. How do you differentiate playing bad and not trying/caring?
Seeing if guys are hustling? Seeing if the so-called leaders are getting upset and trying to fire the guys up when things aren't going well. Not falling behind 10-0 after the 3rd inning every other game. All those things point to a team giving up. I don't care how lacking in talent you are, you should not go like 2-25 in September or whatever the hell we were.

Maybe I'm wrong in that regard, but that's the impression I took away this past September. Team was not putting in max effort anymore and had checked out.
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Old 10-20-2017, 03:13 AM   #24
sggatecl   sggatecl is offline
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Seeing if guys are hustling? Seeing if the so-called leaders are getting upset and trying to fire the guys up when things aren't going well. Not falling behind 10-0 after the 3rd inning every other game. All those things point to a team giving up. I don't care how lacking in talent you are, you should not go like 2-25 in September or whatever the hell we were.

Maybe I'm wrong in that regard, but that's the impression I took away this past September. Team was not putting in max effort anymore and had checked out.
Maybe I just have a poor eye for such things but I attended more than 20 home games this season and I don't know if I ever saw a play where I thought lack of hustle was the reason for a poor outcome.

I'll grant you the lack of 'rah rah' leadership wasn't present but I've also always been of the opinion that grown ass men shouldn't need to be yelled at every 20 games to remember that they need to play hard. I know there are plenty of others that think otherwise though.
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Old 10-20-2017, 04:26 AM   #25
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The Tigers' 21st century version of Ralph Houk.
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Old 10-20-2017, 07:51 AM   #26
Rebbiv   Rebbiv is offline
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Maybe I just have a poor eye for such things but I attended more than 20 home games this season and I don't know if I ever saw a play where I thought lack of hustle was the reason for a poor outcome.

I'll grant you the lack of 'rah rah' leadership wasn't present but I've also always been of the opinion that grown ass men shouldn't need to be yelled at every 20 games to remember that they need to play hard. I know there are plenty of others that think otherwise though.
I also see about 20 games a year in person and many more via MLBTV. Bad baseball, despite the team, is distinguishable. Getting picked off. Overthrowing the cutoff man. Running through a stop sign. The list goes on.

In different times, and with some managers, these "mental" mistakes causes a player being removed from the game (and maybe sat for a game or two). Physical mistakes happen all the time and is expected. Getting picked off 1B because a player was snoozing is unacceptable. Ausmus allowed mental mistakes to happen without any overt signs of correcting them. And they happened time and time again. That is where I had serious issues with Ausmus. The manager sets the style of play, even if he cannot control what type of talent he has.

Also, players used to hold "kangaroo courts" and take it upon themselves to discipline "bad" play. By all accounts, this isn't (or hasn't) been happening in Detroit for quite some time.

Being 20 years in the Army, a leader does not have to be vocal to be effective. Just like good parents don't need to say anything for a child to feel bad for having screwed up. But if a military leader loses respect, apathy sets in. Apathy breeds apathy. If you walk into a room, and everyone is a "Debby-downer", it will eventually bring you down.

Players know when they or others screwed up. When this goes unchecked, it creates a negative atmosphere. The Tigers had an opportunity here to correct the atmosphere. Instead, they choose a manager who has a record of being a players friend, rather than a respected superior. Huge difference. As a military leader, you can be friendly, but your subordinates must be able to follow your orders without hesitation.

Sure, at the end of the year, regardless of who is the manager, DET is going to lose 100 games. The difference is the attitude that gets set in place that may take years to resolve. The Tigers had their chance and they missed it. They didn't need a "strict" manager (Showalter), but they didn't need a manger that will pamper.
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Old 10-20-2017, 09:48 AM   #27
sggatecl   sggatecl is offline
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In different times, and with some managers, these "mental" mistakes causes a player being removed from the game (and maybe sat for a game or two). Physical mistakes happen all the time and is expected. Getting picked off 1B because a player was snoozing is unacceptable. Ausmus allowed mental mistakes to happen without any overt signs of correcting them. And they happened time and time again. That is where I had serious issues with Ausmus. The manager sets the style of play, even if he cannot control what type of talent he has.
Now this is what I can get behind. Hell, our base running alone was almost reason enough to warrant an entire clearing of the coaching roster. Accountability seemed to be at an all time low.
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Old 10-20-2017, 10:52 AM   #28
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I just know that I've never ever in my life seen a team play as bad as the Tigers did at the end of this season. 6-24 in September/October is absurd, I don't care how bad your major league talent is. That's a rate that would win you 32 games in an entire season. It wasn't just the amount of losses, it's that a lot of games were over before the 2nd or 3rd inning even began. How could there not have been a total lack of leadership/accountability at play? Perhaps lack of effort was the wrong phrase to use.

I get it, the vast majority of the problem was all the best players were dealt away. I feel Brad didn't get the most out of the team that remained is all I'm saying.
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Old 10-20-2017, 10:58 AM   #29
Rebbiv   Rebbiv is offline
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https://www.blessyouboys.com/2017/10...ntract-details

Excellent read, in particular about analytics.

As the offseason grinds along and Gardenhire starts giving interviews as the team’s new manager, reporters will have a keen eye for comments about these concerns. His choices for the coaching staff will also be scrutinized through that lens. The front office should be looking to him to clean up the team’s fundamentals and to quiet a clubhouse that has grown restless. They need him to squeeze as much value out of their players as possible, whether for future trade value or as building blocks. The rebuild can’t just be a waiting game. The Tigers need Gardenhire to an asset and not a stumbling block towards their goal of building an effective, modern organization.
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Old 10-20-2017, 11:03 AM   #30
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I just know that I've never ever in my life seen a team play as bad as the Tigers did at the end of this season. 6-24 in September/October is absurd, I don't care how bad your major league talent is. That's a rate that would win you 32 games in an entire season. It wasn't just the amount of losses, it's that a lot of games were over before the 2nd or 3rd inning even began. How could there not have been a total lack of leadership/accountability at play? Perhaps lack of effort was the wrong phrase to use.

I get it, the vast majority of the problem was all the best players were dealt away. I feel Brad didn't get the most out of the team that remained is all I'm saying.
Their pitching staff was absolutely abysmal, except for one near no-hitter by Boyd. Even the few times when the SP wasn't terrible, their shitty BP coughed up the losing runs.
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