Spartanmack said:

I'm not familiar with Schrodinger so I'm probably missing something here (and I'm too hungover to read his wikipedia page especially considering the possibility that there may be more than one Shrodinger and I may read the wrong one) but why is the average of the unknown equal to the average of the known - is there a known limit of outcomes for Schrodinger packages?

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It's supposed to be a thought experiment about the absurdity of quantum states. You don't know what state a particle is in until you look at it, and there's evidence the particle is in both states until the measurement is made. The absurd thought experiment was to have a cat in a box with some poison that would be release if the particle was in one state and not the other. Since it's valid to treat the particle as being in both states, then it's valid to think of the cat as both dead and alive...or the brown paper packages simultaneously containing a case of Old Rasputin Imperial Stout and tube socks.

It's technically not valid to apply it to situation that just involves probability and not quantum superposition, but a show like the Big Bang Theory will look the other way and make jokes based on that stretching of the thought experiment.

I have no doubt that Google has known about the Schrodinger experiment for years.

Me, I heard about it from watching the Big Bang theory.

That freaking Chuck Lorre, not only are his shows entertaining, but they're educational as well.

He is a great man, and a true contributor to society.

Gulo Blue said:

It's supposed to be a thought experiment about the absurdity of quantum states. You don't know what state a particle is in until you look at it, and there's evidence the particle is in both states until the measurement is made. The absurd thought experiment was to have a cat in a box with some poison that would be release if the particle was in one state and not the other. Since it's valid to treat the particle as being in both states, then it's valid to think of the cat as both dead and alive...or the brown paper packages simultaneously containing a case of Old Rasputin Imperial Stout and tube socks.

It's technically not valid to apply it to situation that just involves probability and not quantum superposition, but a show like the Big Bang Theory will look the other way and make jokes based on that stretching of the thought experiment.

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If it's valid to think of the particle in both states simultaneously, isn't the cat alive since the poison is released if the particle is in one state and NOT the other? Or is the particle in one state or the other but you don't know which until you measure it thus it's valid to think of it in both states simultaneously even though it is not?

tinselwolverine said:

I have no doubt that Google has known about the Schrodinger experiment for years.

Me, I heard about it from watching the Big Bang theory.

That freaking Chuck Lorre, not only are his shows entertaining, but they're educational as well.

He is a great man, and a true contributor to society.

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I heard about it from reading DSF - I couldn't get into BBT or Two and a Half Men for that matter. Has he created anything else?

I did find this though:
http://schrodingerskitten.blogspot.com/2007/02/brown-paper-packages-tied-up-with_19.html

it would have been better if he/she said "These are a few of my favorite things" but "Here are a few..." is close enough.

Spartanmack said:

If it's valid to think of the particle in both states simultaneously, isn't the cat alive since the poison is released if the particle is in one state and NOT the other? Or is the particle in one state or the other but you don't know which until you measure it thus it's valid to think of it in both states simultaneously even though it is not?

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It's not just valid to think of it as being in both states, it behaves like it's in both states. I'd have to use google to dig up the experiment that shows it. I can't remember if it's built up on particle/wave experiments or if it's an entanglement thing.

The basic particle/wave thing is the double slit experiment. If you project a crap load of photons at a surface with two slits in it and observe the light patter on the other side of the slits, you'll see and interference pattern (a bunch of lines, bright in the middle and lighter as you move from the center) suggesting that light propagates in waves.

However, we also know (from the photoelectric effect) that light is quantized, made up of particles called photons. You can get this same effect by firing electrons at the double slit instead of photons and using electrons, you can control the intensity clear down to the point where you're firing 1 single electron at a time...and you still get the interference pattern. If you put a detector on one of the slits, the pattern goes away and you just get two lines corresponding to the two slits. I'm pretty sure that's where we get this idea that observation collapses the wave function. The undetected particle/wave goes through both slits and interferes with itself while the detected particle/wave is forced to pick a side.

It gets more complicated from there and my memory get fuzzier. People have used beam-splitters to send either photons or electrons that go through different slits down different paths to see if detection down one path impacts behavior on the other path and the results are counter intuitive, but I don't remember exactly what they are, but these ideas about particles taking every path they can simultaneously has some people believing in multiple universes. I think they've even introduced time delays in the measurement showing really wonky stuff that would suggest the cat really would have to be both dead and alive because the event that would kill that cat has already taken place, but it just won't be determined until you make that measurement.

Spartanmack said:

I heard about it from reading DSF - I couldn't get into BBT or Two and a Half Men for that matter. Has he created anything else?

I did find this though:
http://schrodingerskitten.blogspot.com/2007/02/brown-paper-packages-tied-up-with_19.html

it would have been better if he/she said "These are a few of my favorite things" but "Here are a few..." is close enough.

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A lot of stuff; Mom with Anna Farris and Mike and Molly are pretty recent.

Gulo, I never told you, but for about a year and a half one time, I lived practically across the street from Cal Tech.

Speaking of Two and a Half Men and Schrodinger's cat, I was watching Two and a Half Men the other night, and this thought occurred to me:

The show is actually just as good, or better with Ashton Kutcher instead of Charlie Sheen - BUT - at the same time, it is also just as bad, or worse.

Spartanmack said:

I did find this though:
http://schrodingerskitten.blogspot.com/2007/02/brown-paper-packages-tied-up-with_19.html

it would have been better if he/she said "These are a few of my favorite things" but "Here are a few..." is close enough.

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...small world...or big world I guess. No matter what you say, someone's already said it. Guess that's the flip side of having infinite monkeys on typewriters. You can't come up with anything new.

tinselwolverine said:

Gulo, I never told you, but for about a year and a half one time, I lived practically across the street from Cal Tech.

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You know how it must suck to consider someone to be a rival when they don't see you that way? Like with Illinois? I've got some of that with this guy from Cal Tech. They were #3 and we were #4 in my major when I was there, but it seems like he pretty much only talks of MIT and Stanford as peers if I'm in the room. The kicker is, I think it's more my perception than anything he does consciously.

Friggin' Cal Tech.

tinselwolverine said:

A lot of stuff; Mom with Anna Farris and Mike and Molly are pretty recent.

Gulo, I never told you, but for about a year and a half one time, I lived practically across the street from Cal Tech.

Speaking of Two and a Half Men and Schrodinger's cat, I was watching Two and a Half Men the other night, and this thought occurred to me:

The show is actually just as good, or better with Ashton Kutcher instead of Charlie Sheen - BUT - at the same time, it is also just as bad, or worse.

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My wife's uncle is a nobel laureate (chemistry) and professor at Cal Tech - suck on that Chuck Lorre!

Spartanmack said:

My wife's uncle is a nobel laureate (chemistry) professor at Cal Tech - suck on that Chuck Lorre!

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Friggin' Cal Tech!

Gulo Blue said:

You know how it must suck to consider someone to be a rival when they don't see you that way? Like with Illinois? I've got some of that with this guy from Cal Tech. They were #3 and we were #4 in my major when I was there, but it seems like he pretty much only talks of MIT and Stanford as peers if I'm in the room. The kicker is, I think it's more my perception than anything he does consciously.

Friggin' Cal Tech.

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It's probably not just perception. As the saying goes, nobody remembers who came in 4th place...

Gulo Blue said:

You know how it must suck to consider someone to be a rival when they don't see you that way? Like with Illinois? I've got some of that with this guy from Cal Tech. They were #3 and we were #4 in my major when I was there, but it seems like he pretty much only talks of MIT and Stanford as peers if I'm in the room. The kicker is, I think it's more my perception than anything he does consciously.

Friggin' Cal Tech.

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Who was #1 and #2? Harvey Mudd and the Naval Academy?

Spartanmack said:

It's probably not just perception. As the saying goes, nobody remembers who came in 4th place...

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I just mean he's not trying to rub it in. He probably would if it occurred to him, but I don't think it does.

Gulo Blue said:

...small world...or big world I guess. No matter what you say, someone's already said it. Guess that's the flip side of having infinite monkeys on typewriters. You can't come up with anything new.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no_elVGGgW8

Gulo Blue said:

I just mean he's not trying to rub it in. He probably would if it occurred to him, but I don't think it does.

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I know what you meant but was also making the point that if he was serious, the 3 vs 4 rivalry is kinda silly. But heh, everyone needs a dog to kick!

tinselwolverine said:

Who was #1 and #2? Harvey Mudd and the Naval Academy?

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I had never even heard of Harvey Mudd until this summer whenI met my father-in-law's friend who went there. I still would have guessed Naval Academy and MIT for 1 & 2.

Spartanmack said:

I had never even heard of Harvey Mudd until this summer whenI met my father-in-law's friend who went there. I still would have guessed Naval Academy and MIT for 1 & 2.

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Well, maybe they were.

Gulo hasn't answered.

EDIT: Oh wait...he hasn't answered because he already said it.

MIT and Stanford.

tinselwolverine said:

Well, maybe they were.

Gulo hasn't answered.

EDIT: Oh wait...he hasn't answered because he already said it.

MIT and Stanford.

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Yeah. I thought maybe it was a joke I didn't get. It was MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech, Michigan.

tinselwolverine said:

Well, maybe they were.

Gulo hasn't answered.

EDIT: Oh wait...he hasn't answered because he already said it.

MIT and Stanford.

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Yeah he did - just saying I would have gotten it wrong - or at least half wrong...