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Tigers vs. redsox ALCS Game 2 Thread

kalinecountry said:
Leyland used up + burned through 4 relievers in that 1 inning, when has he ever done that before?

Leyland constantly gets a pass by the two more vociferous pro-management people here.
I get it, the players failed, and the manager can do no wrong.

My closer association living here and of watching shitsox games, I could just feel something was going to happen after Max was given the handshake of doom, the sword of damocles.

an esteemed poster here, I thought was going to pop a blood vessel, seriously, I already had a headache the last 2 innings, and then reading it all got a migraine.

It will be all over soon.
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Verlander can make it all go away tomorrow.
 
Let's not keep putting it all on verlander though either, get the man some runs offense...really need to see AJ and Torri get it going
 
tigermud said:
Let's not keep putting it all on verlander though either, get the man some runs offense...really need to see AJ and Torri get it going
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I can't see us winning this series if those 2 are going to continue to be useless on offense.
 
tigermud said:
Let's not keep putting it all on verlander though either, get the man some runs offense...really need to see AJ and Torri get it going
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These two have got to start getting on base! Baserunners make runs! V-Mart & Peralta are hitting over .400+ Next .280 Fielder and he does not have an RBI!!!!!! in 7 playoff games! FCOL Don Kelly has the 3rg highest OBP at.417 Jackson .129 and Hunter .194 are hardly on the planet!
 
tigermud said:
Let's not keep putting it all on verlander though either, get the man some runs offense...really need to see AJ and Torri get it going
Click to expand...

These two have got to start getting on base! Baserunners make runs! V-Mart & Peralta are hitting over .400+ Next .280 Fielder and he does not have an RBI!!!!!! in 7 playoff games! FCOL Don Kelly has the 3rd highest OBP at.417 Jackson .129 and Hunter .194 are hardly on the planet!
 
kalinecountry said:
http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2013/10/choose_your_own_adventure_how.html
Choose your own ALCS adventure: Would you have handled bullpen differently in Game 2 loss to Boston?
from Mlive
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As much as I hate Phil Coke, he generally keeps the ball in the yard. I'd have had him face Ortiz, believe it or not. For all the talking about how he hates to bring in Benoit with runners on, he sure was quick to pull to trigger last night. Poor Smyly now has a 27.00 ERA for the series because he walked ONE batter. That'll really boost the confidence of a young pitcher. Lol.
 
Sbee said:
It falls on deaf ears. They want to blame the manager because that's just what they do.

Here's a litmus test, have you ever read posts by these people who overstate the role of a manager if Leyland has ever won a game for them? Theyll never say thay but they will have a ton of losses to pin on him.

Just goes to show thay they're full of shit. They believe their bullshit though. They'll fight to the death about it
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Complaining about the manager does not equate to blaming him for a loss.

Please quit being a jackass.

A managers impact on a game/season is minimal.

It's less than impact of the plays by a longshot.

No shit, you're not some genius for pointing that out.

So to answer your question, no Leyland has never won a game for the Tigers. Just as he has never lost a game for the Tigers. There has never been a game in the history of the sport where a win/loss can fully be credited to one person.

I'm not gonna blame a player for messing up because every player always messes up sometimes. Overall, Smyly, Benoit, and Veras have all been good for us. So I'm not gonna bitch about them failing in one small sample, because that happens to everybody who plays the game at some point.

I will, however, complain when the manager makes a mistake, because that is all mental. That's not something that has to be accepted, because it's perfectly reasonable for a manager to actually make the right strategy choice all the time. The right choice might not always work out, but I never consider the end result when evaluating something, because I don't believe that the ends justify the means.

It was a mistake to start Don Kelly in the playoffs against the Yanks. Even though he hit a HR in the game it was still a mistake and the wrong decision by Leyland.

I agree with him bringing in Benoit to face Ortiz rather than Al Al, but I will complain about how he managed the bullpen well before then, because it was absolutely awful.
 
cmlfactor said:
As much as I hate Phil Coke, he generally keeps the ball in the yard. I'd have had him face Ortiz, believe it or not. For all the talking about how he hates to bring in Benoit with runners on, he sure was quick to pull to trigger last night. Poor Smyly now has a 27.00 ERA for the series because he walked ONE batter. That'll really boost the confidence of a young pitcher. Lol.
Click to expand...



I don't think Smyly gives one shit what his playoff ERA is.
 
mjsb2 said:
Complaining about the manager does not equate to blaming him for a loss.

Please quit being a jackass.

A managers impact on a game/season is minimal.

It's less than impact of the plays by a longshot.

No shit, you're not some genius for pointing that out.

So to answer your question, no Leyland has never won a game for the Tigers. Just as he has never lost a game for the Tigers. There has never been a game in the history of the sport where a win/loss can fully be credited to one person.

I'm not gonna blame a player for messing up because every player always messes up sometimes. Overall, Smyly, Benoit, and Veras have all been good for us. So I'm not gonna bitch about them failing in one small sample, because that happens to everybody who plays the game at some point.

I will, however, complain when the manager makes a mistake, because that is all mental. That's not something that has to be accepted, because it's perfectly reasonable for a manager to actually make the right strategy choice all the time. The right choice might not always work out, but I never consider the end result when evaluating something, because I don't believe that the ends justify the means.

It was a mistake to start Don Kelly in the playoffs against the Yanks. Even though he hit a HR in the game it was still a mistake and the wrong decision by Leyland.

I agree with him bringing in Benoit to face Ortiz rather than Al Al, but I will complain about how he managed the bullpen well before then, because it was absolutely awful.
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Again, its like blackjack, there are percentage plays and they work sometimes and simetimes they don't. You can double down on 11 and lose a hand, doesnt mean that it was a bad idea.

I've just seen this time and time again, every close loss is blamed on Leyland, every win is credited to the players. Its tiresome to see post after post where armchair managers second guess everything after they know the results.
 
Sbee said:
Again, its like blackjack, there are percentage plays and they work sometimes and simetimes they don't. You can double down on 11 and lose a hand, doesnt mean that it was a bad idea.

I've just seen this time and time again, every close loss is blamed on Leyland, every win is credited to the players. Its tiresome to see post after post where armchair managers second guess everything after they know the results.
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I hope it's okay with you to make observations about the mistakes Leyland made as they happened like I did when he removed Scherzer, removed Veras, and failed to use Benoit one batter sooner. As well as replacing Peralta and playing that ill-advised "no doubles" set in the 9th with the bases empty. Because the percentages you champion indicate that singles are far more common than are doubles. And the alignment turned a routine 5-3 into the winning run.

Will that sort of critique ever become "tiresome?" And, will this brand of criticism be acceptable to you? I want to be sensitive to your sensitivities. See below

This, after game one:

My observations about last night's game:

Joe West's strike zone was the best I've witnessed from any umpire this season. It was accurate and consistent and the misses were near enough for the teams not to complain, though the Red Sox showed the whiny nature of their team.

This practice of "defensive-purpose" replacements is over-rated. The removal of both Peralta and Cabrera was ill-advised. A mistake that was manifest by Kelly's pathetic AB in the 9th. And how many defensive assists or putouts did either Kelly or Santiago have in the game?

Leyland made the right decision for Sanchez to finish the sixth-inning. Run expectancy is run expectancy whether Tom Timmerman or Mariano Rivera is pitching. Sanchez's suitably wild stuff was still lively and he was hitting 95+ in the sixth. And the decision to remove him was sound as well. I blanched when AlAl was the pitcher of choice but he did the job, as did the rest of the relievers.

And comparing baseball to blackjack is silly. So is suggesting any lineup that includes Don Kelly and excludes Prince Fielder, Victor Martinez and Miguel Cabrera at any point in the game. Hopefully Prince is repping 1,000 each of off-the-base throws and foul-out popups as I write this.
 
byco42 said:
I hope it's okay with you to make observations about the mistakes Leyland made as they happened like I did when he removed Scherzer, removed Veras, and failed to use Benoit one batter sooner. As well as replacing Peralta and playing that ill-advised "no doubles" set in the 9th with the bases empty. Because the percentages you champion indicate that singles are far more common than are doubles. And the alignment turned a routine 5-3 into the winning run.

Will that sort of critique ever become "tiresome?" And, will this brand of criticism be acceptable to you? I want to be sensitive to your sensitivities. See below

This, after game one:

My observations about last night's game:

Joe West's strike zone was the best I've witnessed from any umpire this season. It was accurate and consistent and the misses were near enough for the teams not to complain, though the Red Sox showed the whiny nature of their team.

This practice of "defensive-purpose" replacements is over-rated. The removal of both Peralta and Cabrera was ill-advised. A mistake that was manifest by Kelly's pathetic AB in the 9th. And how many defensive assists or putouts did either Kelly or Santiago have in the game?

Leyland made the right decision for Sanchez to finish the sixth-inning. Run expectancy is run expectancy whether Tom Timmerman or Mariano Rivera is pitching. Sanchez's suitably wild stuff was still lively and he was hitting 95+ in the sixth. And the decision to remove him was sound as well. I blanched when AlAl was the pitcher of choice but he did the job, as did the rest of the relievers.

And comparing baseball to blackjack is silly. So is suggesting any lineup that includes Don Kelly and excludes Prince Fielder, Victor Martinez and Miguel Cabrera at any point in the game. Hopefully Prince is repping 1,000 each of off-the-base throws and foul-out popups as I write this.
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valid points, maybe I shouldn't paint with as broad of a brush, you are definitely in the minority though when you credit the manager.

This board has two different philosophies on the impact of managerial decisions. some people think that the manager has a huge impact on the outcome of the game and I think it's minimal. my opinion is based on things that I read years ago from Leonard Koppett, baseball prospectus, Zach Hample, Bill James, etc. they make strong arguments with numbers to back it up. some people think differently and that most likely won't change, just like arguing politics. that doesn't mean that I don't like the exchange and arguing the finer points of baseball strategy.
 
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