Another state pushes Anti Union Laws

Gulo Blue · Feb 8, 2017

Spartanmack said:
we wouldn't have exported so many jobs so quickly if unions didn't drive wages so high.

That's like arguing a ship won't sink as quickly if you bail water with bigger buckets. Technically true, but not the root issue.

Gulo Blue · Feb 8, 2017

tomdalton22 said:
The average teacher's salary in the US is $56K which equals about $75K for someone who works all year.

The average american worker that has a bachelors degree averages $60K a year while those with a bachelors or higher was $62.5K

Those with an advanced degree was $72K

It's an easy calculation to extrapolate from $56k to $75k, but pretty unrealistic. There's no way all teachers can find seasonal work like that while they are all in competition with each other to fill the same break in their schedule. Lots of jobs have uneven pay opportunity through the year. Extrapolating from the paid part of the year makes zero sense. It just doesn't reflect reality.

Gulo Blue · Feb 8, 2017

Autoworker unions in the 70's were clearly a problem. But I just don't think they are a big deal now.

mhughes0021 · Feb 8, 2017

Gulo Blue said:
Autoworker unions in the 70's were clearly a problem. But I just don't think they are a big deal now.

Most of the protections are covered by state laws and benefits packages now as far as safety and things like that are concerned. The union will get you a .10 raise once a year....while the non union people are getting like .50 - $1. Doesnt sound like thats worth paying monthly dues for....especially if youre an uneducated entry position that needs to pay your bills.

tomdalton22 · Feb 8, 2017

Gulo Blue said:
It's an easy calculation to extrapolate from $56k to $75k, but pretty unrealistic. There's no way all teachers can find seasonal work like that while they are all in competition with each other to fill the same break in their schedule. Lots of jobs have uneven pay opportunity through the year. Extrapolating from the paid part of the year makes zero sense. It just doesn't reflect reality.

comparing a $56K salary for someone who works 75% of the year to people that work 100% of the year doesn't make sense either.

Gulo Blue · Feb 8, 2017

tomdalton22 said:
comparing a $56K salary for someone who works 75% of the year to people that work 100% of the year doesn't make sense either.

Well, I didn't make that comparison. The situation is that we have a need for a ton of people to work the same 3/4 of a year, and we're trusting our children to them, so it they can't be just anyone in these jobs. It's a challenging and important job. I don't think $56k is overpaying and I don't think you've made a case that it is either.

$56k isn't terrible. It's 69th percentile of individual incomes. $75k is 80th percentile. So even if they make some money over the summer, it's not like they're dramatically overpaid. I feel like 70-80th percential as a median teacher is probably fair.

tomdalton22 · Feb 8, 2017

Gulo Blue said:
Well, I didn't make that comparison. The situation is that we have a need for a ton of people to work the same 3/4 of a year, and we're trusting our children to them, so it they can't be just anyone in these jobs. It's a challenging and important job. I don't think $56k is overpaying and I don't think you've made a case that it is either.

$56k isn't terrible. It's 69th percentile of individual incomes. $75k is 80th percentile. So even if they make some money over the summer, it's not like they're dramatically overpaid. I feel like 70-80th percential as a median teacher is probably fair.

well, we are trusting just anyone to do these jobs. Most teachers are in unions, they all get paid the same rate whether they are good teachers or shitty teachers.

Gulo Blue · Feb 8, 2017

tomdalton22 said:
well, we are trusting just anyone to do these jobs. Most teachers are in unions, they all get paid the same rate whether they are good teachers or shitty teachers.

You think? You think there's a better class of people out there you could get for $56k if not for those union rules?

I don't.

tomdalton22 · Feb 8, 2017

Gulo Blue said:
You think? You think there's a better class of people out there you could get for $56k if not for those union rules?

I don't.

I don't mind the pay...hell, pay them more. What I do hate is that the great teachers get paid the same as the shitty teachers that shouldn't even be teaching. That is the problem with unions.

Gulo Blue · Feb 8, 2017

tomdalton22 said:
I don't mind the pay...hell, pay them more. What I do hate is that the great teachers get paid the same as the shitty teachers that shouldn't even be teaching. That is the problem with unions.

That's crap, but most of what anyone knows about it is subjective and anecdotal. I don't know how to measure how big a deal it really is.

I just think salary is probably a good indicator of union power.

Spartanmack · Feb 8, 2017

Gulo Blue said:
I don't understand why you think tenure should involve research.

And 'not too bad' leaves room for 'not too good' to also be true. They don't need to be underpaid as a condition to argue that their unions aren't too powerful, they just need to not be terribly overpaid.

because the whole idea behind tenure was so that people at the university level could engage in controversial or risky research and not be fired if their research didn't yield a desirable result. there is absolutely no reason for educators at the elementary and high school levels to need or get tenure.

and no, they don't just need to not be terribly overpaid to draw the conclusion that they're not too powerful. there are things like work rules, tenure, seniority, perks, political leverage etc, etc that also factor in whether a union is too powerful or not.

Spartanmack · Feb 8, 2017

Gulo Blue said:
That's like arguing a ship won't sink as quickly if you bail water with bigger buckets. Technically true, but not the root issue.

the point is we've been in a race to the bottom because of unions, not right-to-work. And yeah, it's not the only thing that's going to get us off this track, but it's a big step.

Spartanmack · Feb 8, 2017

Gulo Blue said:
It's an easy calculation to extrapolate from $56k to $75k, but pretty unrealistic. There's no way all teachers can find seasonal work like that while they are all in competition with each other to fill the same break in their schedule. Lots of jobs have uneven pay opportunity through the year. Extrapolating from the paid part of the year makes zero sense. It just doesn't reflect reality.

It's a legitimate approximation given that while they're working, that's the annual rate at which they're getting paid. maybe they can't all earn at the same rate, but you're completely ignoring the utility value of the extra time off. Some may choose to work at higher, same or lower paying jobs, some may choose to volunteer, others may use the time to travel or take classes, still others may choose to do nothing at all with their nearly 3 months of summer vacation with full benefits. Options have value.

Gulo Blue · Feb 8, 2017

Spartanmack said:
because the whole idea behind tenure was so that people at the university level could engage in controversial or risky research and not be fired if their research didn't yield a desirable result. there is absolutely no reason for educators at the elementary and high school levels to need or get tenure.

and no, they don't just need to not be terribly overpaid to draw the conclusion that they're not too powerful. there are things like work rules, tenure, seniority, perks, political leverage etc, etc that also factor in whether a union is too powerful or not.

I think protection for 'controversial or risky' (also meaning political) teaching is the original idea.

Gulo Blue · Feb 8, 2017

Spartanmack said:
It's a legitimate approximation given that while they're working, that's the annual rate at which they're getting paid. maybe they can't all earn at the same rate, but you're completely ignoring the utility value of the extra time off. Some may choose to work at higher, same or lower paying jobs, some may choose to volunteer, others may use the time to travel or take classes, still others may choose to do nothing at all with their nearly 3 months of summer vacation with full benefits. Options have value.

"It's a legitimate approximation"

No it isn't. You decide to invest in equipment to catch salmon during the salmon run abased on the approximation that you make your daily income all year, you'd be hosed. How many economic measures are normalized by time of year because of the seasonal nature of certain industries? I don't even think you think it's a good approximation. If you had to guess what the average teach makes in their off months and you would be awarded some motivating amount of money depending on how close you were, I think you'd come up with a better approximation.

"you're completely ignoring the utility value of the extra time off."

I'm not ignoring it. I considered the range between $56-75k.

tomdalton22 · Feb 8, 2017

Gulo Blue said:
"It's a legitimate approximation"

No it isn't. You decide to invest in equipment to catch salmon during the salmon run abased on the approximation that you make your daily income all year, you'd be hosed. How many economic measures are normalized by time of year because of the seasonal nature of certain industries? I don't even think you think it's a good approximation. If you had to guess what the average teach makes in their off months and you would be awarded some motivating amount of money depending on how close you were, I think you'd come up with a better approximation.

"you're completely ignoring the utility value of the extra time off."

I'm not ignoring it. I considered the range between $56-75k.

I think when trying to compare compensation for a teacher to a traditional college educated professional that works 12 months a year, it's a good approximation. If I decided to work 9 months a year I would make about 75% of what I make now.

Gulo Blue · Feb 8, 2017

tomdalton22 said:
I think when trying to compare compensation for a teacher to a traditional college educated professional that works 12 months a year, it's a good approximation. If I decided to work 9 months a year I would make about 75% of what I make now.

Is your profession seasonal?

edit: I don't know why I asked. It's not, according to your statement, so the comparison isn't fair.

dubbsco · Feb 8, 2017

As someone who's in education, that whole concept that teachers work 9 months a year is laughable.

Teachers are constantly working on material, reading, contacting faculty/staff/administration, and often times going through insanely painful credential updates. There's no legit time off. Teachers end up working more than the traditional 9-5 by the sheer man-hours they put in to stay up to code.

tomdalton22 · Feb 8, 2017

dubbsco said:
As someone who's in education, that whole concept that teachers work 9 months a year is laughable.

Teachers are constantly working on material, reading, contacting faculty/staff/administration, and often times going through insanely painful credential updates. There's no legit time off. Teachers end up working more than the traditional 9-5 by the sheer man-hours they put in to stay up to code.

you are describing most professions...except we have to do those things while working 12 months a year.

FYI, My sister is / was a teacher. I know exactly what she does during the school year and over summer break.

Spartanmack · Feb 8, 2017

Gulo Blue said:
I think protection for 'controversial or risky' (also meaning political) teaching is the original idea.

ok, but people below the university level don't need that kind of protection. it's just an abusive perk that breeds apathy and doesn't provide them any protection they don't already have.

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