The report on Gray trying to injure himself

Gulo Blue · Apr 30, 2015

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ie-gray-police-van-protests-injured/26623821/

We've seen this before. Where after the ball is rolling, some report puts a new spin on the triggering event. So some people will call this BS while others take it as gospel. Just don't expect this to impact the protesting, the rioting, or the non-protesting community members confronting the rioters. None of that is just about Freddie Gray anymore.

grandy · Apr 30, 2015

Pfft, who needs all the facts? These days we just make assumptions, form angry mobs, and riot.

tinselwolverine · Apr 30, 2015

Service unavailable message. I heard something about this on the radio though.

tsmith7559 · Apr 30, 2015

Maybe people in the media, so-called protesters, the president and message board dingbats should wait until ALL the facts are out, two cities burned prematurely...dam shame

Thumb · Apr 30, 2015

The newspaper noted that the prisoner, although sharing the police van, was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him.

According to the document, the prisoner told investigators that Gray was "banging against walls" inside the vehicle and was "intentionally trying to injure himself."

WBAL-TV, however, reports that its investigation showed no evidence to support the second prisoner's claim.

Investigative reporter Jane Miller told MSNBC on Thursday that medical evidence — from the hospital and an autopsy — found that Gray died of a single severe spinal injury resulting from a broken neck.

Miller said the medical evidence does not support a claim that Gray had been banging his head against the van wall.

The reporter also noted that the unidentified prisoner has a "number of years" hanging over his head and has given two different accounts of events that night.

tinselwolverine · Apr 30, 2015

So you're saying this report doesn't prove conclusively that Gray's mortal injuries were self inflicted?

Gulo Blue · Apr 30, 2015

Thumb said:
The newspaper noted that the prisoner, although sharing the police van, was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him.

According to the document, the prisoner told investigators that Gray was "banging against walls" inside the vehicle and was "intentionally trying to injure himself."

WBAL-TV, however, reports that its investigation showed no evidence to support the second prisoner's claim.

Investigative reporter Jane Miller told MSNBC on Thursday that medical evidence ? from the hospital and an autopsy ? found that Gray died of a single severe spinal injury resulting from a broken neck.

Miller said the medical evidence does not support a claim that Gray had been banging his head against the van wall.

The reporter also noted that the unidentified prisoner has a "number of years" hanging over his head and has given two different accounts of events that night.

Sounded like a stretch. Now it sounds more like a stretch. Wasn't there also some effort to claim he had been injured in an accident just prior to arrest too?

Michchamp · Apr 30, 2015

ah, so he severed his own spinal cord... seems plausible.

Michchamp · Apr 30, 2015

From here:

Many in Baltimore are enraged not just by the death of Freddie Gray in police custody but by the mystery that surrounds his death after a ride in a police van. This mystery exists because the officers who could say what happened are protected by a Law Enforcement Officers Bill of Rights, which limits and delays questioning police about potential misconduct. The idea behind such laws in 14 states, and similar contractual rights in some jurisdictions, is that no one should be forced to speak to investigators and possibly incriminate themselves.

Do such measures protect the constitutional rights of police, or do they unnecessarily impede investigations of possible wrongdoing?

it's the latter. 14 days is more than a "cool off" period... it's enough time to falsify evidence, leak stories to villainize the victim (that of course have nothing to do with why he was shot/killed/savagely beaten by police), find witnesses willing to lie, corroborate stories among a number of different individuals, and of course, hope the 24 hour news cycle has long since moved on to something else.

Monster · Apr 30, 2015

grandy said:
Pfft, who needs all the facts? These days we just make assumptions, form angry mobs, and riot.

Dude, didn't you know that cops are targeting innocent black people with long criminal histories and that they're killing them because they're poor? And because poor black people don't have the same opportunities as us rich white folk, we're clearly racist and trying to keep them from succeeding. And if you point out all the cases of poor white people being killed by cops, you're a mother fucking white supremacist! And if you try to accuse the media of inciting anger and violence by not reporting facts, you're a sheep.

Three cheers for White privilege! ....because none of us had to work our asses off for success...WHITE PRIVILEGE!

and On topic, I'll say this explanation is bullshit. I think the video clearly shows he was hurt badly when he was on the ground. Moving him was probably the cause of his death. I wouldn't doubt that he was kicking and banging around in the truck because of the pain, but I don' think it was nearly as violent as they're saying. I just don't think he had the strength for that.

Spartanmack · Apr 30, 2015

michchamp said:
ah, so he severed his own spinal cord... seems plausible.

agreed, because nobody has ever broken their neck or back doing something stupid - especially someone who it was reported was already limping and who may have been trying to hurt himself who also has his hands cuffed behind his back so he couldn't break his fall when his plan works better than he expected. It's literally impossible to suffer serious injury under those circumstances.

If Gray happened to be a white guy, would I still be racist for saying that?

Spartanmack · Apr 30, 2015

Thumb said:
The newspaper noted that the prisoner, although sharing the police van, was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him.

According to the document, the prisoner told investigators that Gray was "banging against walls" inside the vehicle and was "intentionally trying to injure himself."

WBAL-TV, however, reports that its investigation showed no evidence to support the second prisoner's claim.

Investigative reporter Jane Miller told MSNBC on Thursday that medical evidence — from the hospital and an autopsy — found that Gray died of a single severe spinal injury resulting from a broken neck.

Miller said the medical evidence does not support a claim that Gray had been banging his head against the van wall.

The reporter also noted that the unidentified prisoner has a "number of years" hanging over his head and has given two different accounts of events that night.

So investigative reporter Miller is an expert on injuries and forensic evidence?

Did the unidentified prisoner say he was banging his head against the wall? It sounded like he said he couldn't see but what he heard sounded like Gray was trying to hurt himself.

Also, was the unidentified prisoner offered a lighter sentence or a lesser charge or did investigative reporter Miller just throw that in there to discredit the only witness testimony to be released so far?

Miller seems to have an agenda here. I think I'll wait until more evidence comes out before I form an opinion about whether this tragic death was an unfortunate accident of his own doing or he is the victim of police brutality.

Michchamp · Apr 30, 2015

Spartanmack said:
agreed, because nobody has ever broken their neck or back doing something stupid - especially someone who it was reported was already limping and who may have been trying to hurt himself who also has his hands cuffed behind his back so he couldn't break his fall when his plan works better than he expected. It's literally impossible to suffer serious injury under those circumstances.

If Gray happened to be a white guy, would I still be racist for saying that?

you'd just be stupid, instead of racist and stupid.

Thumb · Apr 30, 2015

Spartanmack said:
So investigative reporter Miller is an expert on injuries and forensic evidence?

Did the unidentified prisoner say he was banging his head against the wall? It sounded like he said he couldn't see but what he heard sounded like Gray was trying to hurt himself.

Also, was the unidentified prisoner offered a lighter sentence or a lesser charge or did investigative reporter Miller just throw that in there to discredit the only witness testimony to be released so far?

Miller seems to have an agenda here. I think I'll wait until more evidence comes out before I form an opinion about whether this tragic death was an unfortunate accident of his own doing or he is the victim of police brutality.

Typical derp response.

The information was from medical and autopsy evidence, which was likely done by experts and at some point leaked to the reporter.

Also, you says he's trying to discredit the other prisoner, who in case you can't fucking read, gave 2 different accounts of what happened, sounds to me like prisoner #2 is discrediting himself.

And you want to wait until more evidence comes out to form an opinion, that's just fine. I probably will too. You see, that post was 100% quoted from the article Red posted, I added nothing to it.

But I'm sure Miller has an agenda here, probably got a few speeding tickets from the police or something and wants revenge.

Michchamp · Apr 30, 2015

Monster said:
Dude, didn't you know that cops are targeting innocent black people with long criminal histories and that they're killing them because they're poor? And because poor black people don't have the same opportunities as us rich white folk, we're clearly racist and trying to keep them from succeeding. And if you point out all the cases of poor white people being killed by cops, you're a mother fucking white supremacist! And if you try to accuse the media of inciting anger and violence by not reporting facts, you're a sheep.

Three cheers for White privilege! ....because none of us had to work our asses off for success...WHITE PRIVILEGE!

and On topic, I'll say this explanation is bullshit. I think the video clearly shows he was hurt badly when he was on the ground. Moving him was probably the cause of his death. I wouldn't doubt that he was kicking and banging around in the truck because of the pain, but I don' think it was nearly as violent as they're saying. I just don't think he had the strength for that.

have you considered the possibility that some of you guys are sensitive to the accusation because there's a modicum (or more) of truth in it?

maybe you're not the full-blown race-baiting hypocrites as spartanracist, tLiar and jdilco, but it's the low level racism, looking at the actions of some of the rioters as "the others" that is insidious and allows the lack of understanding of the conditions of poor black communities and the effects on those who live there to perpetuate.

this isn't an attempt to excuse any lawlessness, just an assertion that any condemnation of violence should be accompanied by an equally forceful discussion of the plight of poor blacks, and how difficult of a situation they face due to a lack of access to education, high unemployment, police harassment, & high levels of incarceration.

Gulo Blue · Apr 30, 2015

michchamp said:
this isn't an attempt to excuse any lawlessness, just an assertion that any condemnation of violence should be accompanied by an equally forceful discussion of the plight of poor blacks, and how difficult of a situation they face due to a lack of access to education, high unemployment, police harassment, & high levels of incarceration.

Or, to hit the same point from a slightly different angle, looking at the rest of the world through history, what are some other examples of people that kept rioting just because....whatever, because they had some flaw in their culture or (hopefully nobody would suggest) race?

Deep down, there's something driving it; either the people are wronged, or lied to so they think they are wronged, or somehow came to believe they are wronged. What's the root cause? Are you blaming a race, or a culture, or some other condition? If you blame race, well, you are a racist. If you blame a culture, get ready to be called a racist, because the distinction varies from person to person and can be subtle. That doesn't mean all criticisms of a culture are completely invalid, but those criticisms shouldn't rise to the level of being the driving force behind the state of things.

Spartanmack · Apr 30, 2015

michchamp said:
you'd just be stupid, instead of racist and stupid.

Classic michturd - next you'll accuse me of having started the name calling again because...

michchamp said:
typical. you didnt answer any of the points i made, just used the "i know you are but what am I?" routine...

clearly, it's you who

michchamp said:
...can't follow ideas or comments from post to post... Every new post is taken out of context from the previous ones, subject to pot shots, insults, etc.

Spartanmack · Apr 30, 2015

Thumb said:
Typical derp response.

The information was from medical and autopsy evidence, which was likely done by experts and at some point leaked to the reporter.

Also, you says he's trying to discredit the other prisoner, who in case you can't fucking read, gave 2 different accounts of what happened, sounds to me like prisoner #2 is discrediting himself.

And you want to wait until more evidence comes out to form an opinion, that's just fine. I probably will too. You see, that post was 100% quoted from the article Red posted, I added nothing to it.

But I'm sure Miller has an agenda here, probably got a few speeding tickets from the police or something and wants revenge.

Of course you added nothing to the discussion - why would that ever change?

I can read well enough to know Miller is a she, not a he - maybe it's you you who "can't fucking read" or is not paying attention to detail like, according to your post:

- it's the reporters interpretation of those reports - it doesn't say the medical experts concluded the injuries did not match the witnesses claims or what those claims are. That's clear. Do medical examiners have access to witness testimony? I would think they'd be kept in the dark about that to avoid influencing their findings.

- the fact that there's no indication, other than investigative reporter Miller saying that the witness has changed his story or that the witness has "a number of years" hanging over him. That too is clear.

So is it your contention that personal bias would never leak into a reporter's story? They would have to have gotten some parking tickets or a speeding ticket in order to have an agenda? Do you think if michturd stopped chasing ambulances and became a reporter that he could write this piece objectively? It's clear he has no integrity, couldn't this reporter also be a biased hack?

From what I can tell, nobody is saying he died from blunt force trama (i.e. bashing his head against the wall). They're saying he died from a spinal chord injury - an injury he COULD have sustained as a result of trying to injure himself. They also don't say how he was trying to hurt himself, just that it sounded like he was trying to. So some reporter saying that the cause of death doesn't indicate he was bashing his head against the wall indicates nothing - except that maybe she's trying to put ideas in people heads.

Gulo Blue · Apr 30, 2015

If you can't see, what's the difference between the sound of someone trying to hurt themselves and someone trying to kick their way out?

Spartanmack · Apr 30, 2015

michchamp said:
have you considered the possibility that some of you guys are sensitive to the accusation because there's a modicum (or more) of truth in it?

maybe you're not the full-blown race-baiting hypocrites as spartanracist, tLiar and jdilco, but it's the low level racism, looking at the actions of some of the rioters as "the others" that is insidious and allows the lack of understanding of the conditions of poor black communities and the effects on those who live there to perpetuate.

this isn't an attempt to excuse any lawlessness, just an assertion that any condemnation of violence should be accompanied by an equally forceful discussion of the plight of poor blacks, and how difficult of a situation they face due to a lack of access to education, high unemployment, police harassment, & high levels of incarceration.

who is sensitive to the accusation? I don't think any person here takes it seriously or is offended by it because most know it's completely baseless. They realize it's your weak tactic to explain why anyone would disagree with the stupid things you say. The only reason it gets mentioned is to point out how you have to resort to it because everyone so easily destroys your weak arguments. I've never once complained about it - unlike you, i've never gone whining to the moderator about anything you've ever said to me. I know you're an angry, hateful bigot so when you make false claims against me, it just makes me laugh at you more.

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