michchamp said:

he did not come in and trash the program like his predecessor, and leave it a mess. and going 11-2 with what RR left was a hell of an achievement on its own.

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He did leave the program a mess. Thanks to his recruiting we have no o-line depth, Harbaugh was forced to go out and recruit transfers and grad transfers so we would have a capable starting QB, and we have no upper class players at WR.

Defense has been fine, but he left one side of the ball a complete mess.

dubbsco said:

The scandal may have been on Brandon, but what happened in that moment, on that field... That's 100 percent on the coach.

But if he stood up and was pointing at his leg, limping around, why wouldn't a coach bring him out for a play or two to get him checked out?? The game was WAY out of hand, there's no reason to keep someone in there who could have his leg explode at any minute.

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Yes, there was a reason to keep throwing him back into the game, even though it was obvious to everyone that Morris was playing poorly and completely ineffective. Hoke was tired of the criticism he was getting for not giving Morris a shot when Gardner was struggling, so he proved a point by leaving him out there for 3 quarters and sending him back out there again after he clearly hurt his leg and was concussed.

He showed us all

Hoke did not "send" Morris back into the game. Hoke wanted a time out to be able to put Gardner back in and the officials would not grant one for that reason (Hoke was right). It was Bellomy who shouted for Morris to renter the game, because he could not find his helmet. There was a long-standing process under John Falk for a student manager to always stand next to the backup QB to hand him his helmet. That policy in place alone would have ended the controversy. But it was not in place anymore. No one knew that Morris was concussed at the time, either. The real blowback was caused by the ineptness of handling the incident by inexperienced SID and PR departments. Remember that DB caused a lot of attrition of the people who had been with the athletic department for years and decades. A guy like Bruce Madej would have addressed and ended this story the same day, and here we are, still talking about it years later.

byco42 said:

Hoke did not "send" Morris back into the game. Hoke wanted a time out to be able to put Gardner back in and the officials would not grant one for that reason (Hoke was right). It was Bellomy who shouted for Morris to renter the game, because he could not find his helmet. There was a long-standing process under John Falk for a student manager to always stand next to the backup QB to hand him his helmet. That policy in place alone would have ended the controversy. But it was not in place anymore. No one knew that Morris was concussed at the time, either. The real blowback was caused by the ineptness of handling the incident by inexperienced SID and PR departments. Remember that DB caused a lot of attrition of the people who had been with the athletic department for years and decades. A guy like Bruce Madej would have addressed and ended this story the same day, and here we are, still talking about it years later.

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John Falk wasn't there as Brandon forced him to retire -
And bruce and i talked about it at the time. He and i were laughing about the midnight statement and how poorly it was written
As he said, do not a one day story become a two day story.


Brandon pushed or fired about 1/3 of longer term employees incl bruce

Michlady said:

John Falk wasn't there as Brandon forced him to retire -
And bruce and i talked about it at the time. He and i were laughing about the midnight statement and how poorly it was written
As he said, do not a one day story become a two day story.


Brandon pushed or fired about 1/3 of longer term employees incl bruce

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it's almost unbelievable how bad of a job Brandon did. I figured he of all people would recognize that Michigan football is not Domino's Pizza... but apparently his years in corporate America blinded him to the consequences of running things like that.

I guess there will continue to be this disconnect between people who think Hoke was just a bumbling idiot or if he had some sort of purpose to his madness. Either way, he stunk as Michigan's coach. Seems people want to make excuses for him, because they say, "he's a Michigan Man!!", but whatever.

Like said above, besides the entire Morris debacle AND the spike And various other issues, Hoke left the program without a good RB, any good upperclassmen WR, 1 Olineman worth a damn, and no QB, but those people who say, "he's a MIchgan man," continue to say that he left the program in good shape for Harbaugh. No, Harbaugh took a mess and made it better. People want to at least give Hoke credit for a good defense, but I don't. I give all of that credit to Mattison. Hoke was just lucky enough to hire him. That being said, the defense is now full of sophomores. Where are Hoke's juniors? Where are Hoke's seniors?

hungry said:

I guess there will continue to be this disconnect between people who think Hoke was just a bumbling idiot or if he had some sort of purpose to his madness. Either way, he stunk as Michigan's coach. Seems people want to make excuses for him, because they say, "he's a Michigan Man!!", but whatever.

Like said above, besides the entire Morris debacle AND the spike And various other issues, Hoke left the program without a good RB, any good upperclassmen WR, 1 Olineman worth a damn, and no QB, but those people who say, "he's a MIchgan man," continue to say that he left the program in good shape for Harbaugh. No, Harbaugh took a mess and made it better. People want to at least give Hoke credit for a good defense, but I don't. I give all of that credit to Mattison. Hoke was just lucky enough to hire him. That being said, the defense is now full of sophomores. Where are Hoke's juniors? Where are Hoke's seniors?

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no one is making any excuses, or defending his record here.

you seemed to have a pre-conceived notion about what went down in that Minnesota game, and refuse to change it, even in light of accounts from team staff that indicated Hoke bore little - if any - responsibility for it. yeah, he's the HC, and the buck stops with him, and HEY! he was fired at the end of the season.

Not sure why you're hell-bent on turning this into an argument about Hoke being a rotten guy. doesn't seem to be the case. sure he was not a great coach, I don't think anyone is trying to say otherwise.

for what it's worth, my take on the Morris concussion issue was initially the same as yours... Hoke put Morris in there to prove a point, and kept him in because he didn't give a shit anymore. I wasn't able to watch the game though, and just read accounts of it. I see no reason to disbelieve the accounts of the medical staff that came out after. Like Gulo said, why would they lie here, but not when Brandon wanted them to? doesn't make sense.

and Hoke wasn't "lucky" to hire Mattison, just like he wasn't "unlucky" when he hired Nussmeier. he made a good hire in Mattison, a mediocre hire in Borges, and followed it up with a bad one when he replaced him. and that's what doomed his regime in Ann Arbor.

given what happened at UF, I don't know who would hire Nussmeier again.

hungry said:

those people who say, "he's a MIchgan man," continue to say that he left the program in good shape for Harbaugh.

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I don't claim he left the program in good shape. I think people forget how bad the 2014 and 2015 recruiting classes were. Looking at rivals, #31 and #50.

It isn't "pre-conceived."

besides, the entire debate is stupid. Hoke isn't a serious candidate for the UT job. He's just holding the chair. Like I said initially, hopefully nothing stupid just accidentally happens under his watch.

his singlemost best quality is that he was marginally better than RichRod

Harbaugh is in year three. His recruits are who should be playing now

Hoke as iin Year three when fired. Really only influenced two classes

Also most folks kind of sense hoke was being fired so recruits Were maybe hesitant ? Or other factors came to olay e.g. mike Webber

Our Offnse last year was mainly hoke recruits Hoke really had only 2 years of recruiting just


At the same time, Other teams can recruit a qb and have him play as freshman or sophmore. Not sure why we give jim a pass on this

Michlady said:

Harbaugh is in year three. His recruits are who should be playing now

Hoke as iin Year three when fired. Really only influenced two classes

Also most folks kind of sense hoke was being fired so recruits Were maybe hesitant ? Or other factors came to olay e.g. mike Webber

Our Offnse last year was mainly hoke recruits Hoke really had only 2 years of recruiting just


At the same time, Other teams can recruit a qb and have him play as freshman or sophmore. Not sure why we give jim a pass on this

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What?!? Hoke was not fired after year 3. See this is what I'm talking about. People revise history for this guy. Hoke was fired after his 4th year.

Harbaugh is playing his players. His players are freshmen and sophomores. Hokes players should be the juniors and seniors on this team, but the only ones that can contribute are Speight, Hurst, McCray, and Kugler. That is all that is left.

I only bring this up and argue this, because I'm sick of seeing it in threads on here that he was a good guy that was just in over his head. I don't understand why people do not like this guy. They say that he recruited well, just that he could not develop players. Well, he recruited players with *'s, but those players weren't really that good and now those "highly recruited" players are sitting on the bench while watching freshmen and sophomores take their minutes.

hungry said:

What?!? Hoke was not fired after year 3. See this is what I'm talking about. People revise history for this guy. Hoke was fired after his 4th year.

Harbaugh is playing his players. His players are freshmen and sophomores. Hokes players should be the juniors and seniors on this team, but the only ones that can contribute are Speight, Hurst, McCray, and Kugler. That is all that is left.

I only bring this up and argue this, because I'm sick of seeing it in threads on here that he was a good guy that was just in over his head. I don't understand why people do not like this guy. They say that he recruited well, just that he could not develop players. Well, he recruited players with *'s, but those players weren't really that good and now those "highly recruited" players are sitting on the bench while watching freshmen and sophomores take their minutes.

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One mistake is not people revising history for the guy. I don't think anybody here disagrees with regard to the direction of the program, the development of the players, or anything on that part of it. I think Spartan posters argue about the recruits being good enough - not Michigan posters.

Gulo Blue said:

I don't claim he left the program in good shape. I think people forget how bad the 2014 and 2015 recruiting classes were. Looking at rivals, #31 and #50.

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whoa-ho really?

I suspected Hoke wasn't doing a good job at pretty much anything, but I thought he was at least recruiting well. at least that's what I remember people saying. and sparties claiming we couldn't develop players like Dantonio could.

a class ranked 50th...?

I wasn't trying to revise history. Just lost track

Never said he was good and agree about lack of development
I just don't like blaming Hoke for our problems now


Also don't forget we had a large senior class either last year or year before and the last group Hoke recruited was smaller

I still say at this point Jim is just as responsible

Michigan does not run the football or beat its rivals or the better teams in the conference. These are the facts and they are indisputable. That said, I have reason to hope that they will in short time do both well.


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