Quantifying failure

[Michchamp]

Just read this:

"A new study by the Costs of War Project by the Watson Institute for International Studies at Brown University has made strides in quantifying the Iraq War ten years after the U.S. invaded. According to the study, flagged in Reuters, the war ?has cost $1.7 trillion with an additional $490 billion in benefits owed to war veterans, expenses that could grow to more than $6 trillion over the next four decades counting interest, a study released on Thursday said.?

The death toll of Iraqi civilians, security forces, journalists and humanitarian workers is estimated at 189,000, according to the Study. Via Reuters:

The report concluded the United States gained little from the war while Iraq was traumatized by it. The war reinvigorated radical Islamist militants in the region, set back women?s rights, and weakened an already precarious healthcare system, the report said. Meanwhile, the $212 billion reconstruction effort was largely a failure with most of that money spent on security or lost to waste and fraud, it said.
​

Link.

I would go further and state that while a few Americans gained a lot from the war, American taxpayers and the public in general lost more. From a reputational standpoint, it was even more devastating.

 

[Michchamp]

it's almost quaint to remember how they sold this one:

DONALD RUMSFELD, Former U.S. Secretary of Defense: The Office of Management and Budget estimated it would be something under $50 billion.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, Anchor, "This Week": Outside estimates say up to $300 billion.
DONALD RUMSFELD: Baloney.​

 

[byco42]

I don't care about our "reputation." I care about the people affected and the after-effects that were so shortsightedly dismissed. The notion of "bringing democracy" to a nation like that is untenable on its face. Movements like that grow organically among people willing to die in the effort to end the rule of a tyrant. And there's the obvious contradiction between the tenets of Islam and freedom that are irreconsilable. And I took not one Poli Sci course.

My public message as president: "We will continue the NATO enforcement, and urge Saddam to reveal his WMDs."

My private message to Saddam: "If you fuck up, I'll turn your country into a pile of rubble."

 

[Mitchrapp]

You make it sound like this war was any different to any other war. Loss of life and money spent, though less in earlier years because well stuff didn't cost as much, is common. War sucks but it happens from time to time, better off here even during the 8 years of Bush (I'm speaking for you of course, I didn't despise Bush as much) than anywhere else..

 

[Michchamp]

You make it sound like this war was any different to any other war. Loss of life and money spent, though less in earlier years because well stuff didn't cost as much, is common. War sucks but it happens from time to time, better off here even during the 8 years of Bush (I'm speaking for you of course, I didn't despise Bush as much) than anywhere else..

so you're saying an invasion of a sovereign nation, mass murder, thousands of deaths, widespread corruption and fraud, and crippling financial outlay... all water under the bridge.

I forgot that you weren't the one who complains about government spending, that was tsmith.

 

[Mitchrapp]

so you're saying an invasion of a sovereign nation, mass murder, thousands of deaths, widespread corruption and fraud, and crippling financial outlay... all water under the bridge.

I forgot that you weren't the one who complains about government spending, that was tsmith.

I didn't say any of that..what the hell were you looking at :shrug:

 

[Michchamp]

you're saying "meh. War isn't that big of a deal."

I guess.

 

[Thumb]

You make it sound like this war was any different to any other war. Loss of life and money spent, though less in earlier years because well stuff didn't cost as much, is common. War sucks but it happens from time to time, better off here even during the 8 years of Bush (I'm speaking for you of course, I didn't despise Bush as much) than anywhere else..

It is different from any other war.

WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf....those wars were fought because the US and or NATO decides to step in and aid people fighting for their freedom. In each case the main objective was to push back or defeat an invading army.

The Iraq war used WMD's but let's face it that was a smokescreen blown straight up our asses. Iraq was a thorn in our side that the first Bush administration wanted to deal with, but didn't have a good enough reason. Then 911 happens and were already in the region, we staged troops and materials for months and used a flimsy report from the UK as our trump card. Even when the UN weapons inspectors came back and said "we can't see shit". then after the invasion and subsequent egg on their faces, the speeches became less about WMD's and more about this freedom from a dictator.

It happened and we can't change that, but a lot of American Soldiers and Marines were killed or permanently injured, at the gain of almost nothing, so the least we can do is admit mistakes were made.

People love to say how Obama's policies are going to "cost our children", but that war will be costing our grandchildrens grandchildren long after anyone can remember a good reason to invade Iraq.

 

[Mitchrapp]

you're saying "meh. War isn't that big of a deal."

I guess.

I was saying it happens and all wars suck, I thought I was pretty clear.

 

[Mitchrapp]

It is different from any other war.

WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf....those wars were fought because the US and or NATO decides to step in and people fighting for their freedom. In each case the main objective was to push back or defeat an invading army.

The Iraq war used WMD's but let's face it that was a smokescreen blown straight up our asses. Iraq was a thorn in our side that the first Bush administration wanted to deal with, but didn't have a good enough reason. Then 911 happens and were already in the region, we staged troops and materials for months and used a flimsy report from the UK as our trump card. Even when the UN weapons inspectors came back and said "we can't see shit". then after the invasion and subsequent egg on their faces, the speeches became less about WMD's and more about this freedom from a dictator.

It happened and we can't change that, but a lot of American Soldiers and Marines were killed or permanently injured, at the gain of almost nothing, so the least we can do is admit mistakes were made.

People love to say how Obama's policies are going to "cost our children", but that war will be costing our grandchildrens grandchildren long after anyone can remember a good reason to invade Iraq.

Regardless how we got that, lies and whatnot it did serve a purpose - freedom. That dude was bad..

 

[Thumb]

Regardless how we got that, lies and whatnot it did serve a purpose - freedom. That dude was bad..

You think the people in Iraq have more freedom? the infrastructure is still in shambles Mitch.

Saddam was a bad guy, nobody is arguing that, but it's not the policy of the US to invade a sovereign nation in order to displace a dictator.

And if it is, why the fuck didn't US send troops to Darfur? or any of the other places that things far worse than what happened in Iraq are still going in?

 

[Mitchrapp]

You think the people in Iraq have more freedom? the infrastructure is still in shambles Mitch.

Saddam was a bad guy, nobody is arguing that, but it's not the policy of the US to invade a sovereign nation in order to displace a dictator.

And if it is, why the fuck didn't US send troops to Darfur? or any of the other places that things far worse than what happened in Iraq are still going in?

Someone got bad Intel and emotions were high after 9-11. Once they got there..well the rest is history. Would it make you feel better if someone apologized?

But the original post was about money and people dying, all wars. Most people think Vietnam was a mistake. Even if it was for "peace", still loss of lives and a shit load of money spent. And Korea, why were we there?

 

[spockmaster]

You think the people in Iraq have more freedom? the infrastructure is still in shambles Mitch.

Saddam was a bad guy, nobody is arguing that, but it's not the policy of the US to invade a sovereign nation in order to displace a dictator.

And if it is, why the fuck didn't US send troops to Darfur? or any of the other places that things far worse than what happened in Iraq are still going in?

Because most of those other places don't have lots of oil like Iraq does. If we were really in the business of invading sovereign nations just to displace dictators, we would have taken care of North Korea and its psychopathic regime a long time ago.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Because most of those other places don't have lots of oil like Iraq does. If we were really in the business of invading sovereign nations just to displace dictators, we would have taken care of North Korea and its psychopathic regime a long time ago.

I still say we surprise bomb them. Need to get a Republican in office first.

 

[Thumb]

Someone got bad Intel and emotions were high after 9-11. Once they got there..well the rest is history. Would it make you feel better if someone apologized?

But the original post was about money and people dying, all wars. Most people think Vietnam was a mistake. Even if it was for "peace", still loss of lives and a shit load of money spent. And Korea, why were we there?

No, nobody needs to apologize, that won't do any good.

If I wished for anything, it's that people would stop making excuses and trying to justify it with the "Oh, no WMD's but we ousted Saddam and installed democracy, therefore making everyone in Iraq's lives better" line of total bullshit. It was a massive fuck up, let's all call it like it is.

 

[schles192]

Revenge for trying to kill pops was the only explanation that made sense to me, oil was 2nd.

 

[Michchamp]

Revenge for trying to kill pops was the only explanation that made sense to me, oil was 2nd.

yeah, for that amount of money... just buy the oil.

it would be cheaper.

If the oil companies have enough political power to demand we invade Iraq and get it, why not just write them a bunch of checks drawn on the treasury? no one dies. we don't damage our reputation as a "beacon of democracy" and all that.

 

[schles192]

That was the thing they were sitting on the oil and not selling, so we overthrow the gov put in a puppet and then we can buy it.

 

[Michchamp]

and people forget that the "think tanks" that employed Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rice, Rumsfeld, et al, had been pushing Clinton to invade throughout the late 90s. They wanted an invasion, period.

that's what think tanks do... demand invasions. Demand more troops... demand more money.

 

[byco42]

When I think of a think tank I don't think they think much about the consequences of their thinking. I'd rather see a "do tank."