The eternal sunshine of the spotless Fundie mind

[turok]

Eternity has no beginning and no end. so after we pass away, according to Christian Biblical prophesy, our supposed everlasting souls will await "Judgment Day" (except for those fundie faithful and relative "holier than thou art" few who allegedly would be raptured into the heavens a bit beforehand) Maybe the Creator will wait until a few weeks before our middle-aged Sun goes Red Giant ~7.6 billion years from now and use it to "clean up" the remaining unrepentant sinners. But then there are those who believe that the Earth is only about 6K years old, so perhaps we only have that much "time" left before the Sun swallows up the innermost half of the planets in our solar system....hmmm.

BUT...eternity is not bound by the laws of the passing of time in the universe....sooo then Judgment Day being a period in time would/could/should have occurred already from an "eternal" POV? If so then we might encounter all that has lived and died before AND after our own lifetimes including both our ancestors and our future descendants.

I recently watched an episode of the science/astronomy TV show "Cosmos" where a graphic was displayed detailing how tiny of an area of the Milky Way galaxy beyond our solar system would be viewable from telescopes. if indeed the Universe/Earth was only 6K years old. Further out would be only impenetrable darkness. Depending on distance, light from ever more remote stars and galaxies takes millions if not billions of years to reach our planet, and a "light year" has been calculated to be equal to almost 6 trillion miles. Of course there are likely biblical scholars who would "refudiate" that scientific measurement as well.

I find it impossible to believe that our tiny dust-speck of a planet is the ONLY one that has sentient life upon it in our Milky Way galaxy, much less the billions of other solar systems within billions of galaxies in the observable universe. If there really is a God/Creator, why would He/She/It create such vastness, just as lifeless cosmic"window-dressing" for humankind to marvel and wonder at?

 

[Monster]

First of all, I love the show. Nothing like science that is explained in terms that even stupid people can understand. And I completely agree with your post. I believe the typical response to your last question would be, "Who are you to question God?".

Speaking of that, I was in a conversation with my brother in law (catholic) last weekend about God. Usually, that's a bad idea to mix religion and family in a conversation, but we never have issues.

Anyway, he was asking about evolution and the big bang and I brought up Cosmos. Offered to put it on tv since I knew the episodes were On Demand. His actual word for word response was, "That's okay. I don't like watching shows like that. God created science. Who am I to try to understand his science?"

I understand, though. It makes more sense that a highly intelligent, omnipotent being has been here FOREVER and decided in the middle of forever to create life on one tiny little speck out of billions of other specks.

 

[Michchamp]

...His actual word for word response was, "That's okay. I don't like watching shows like that. God created science. Who am I to try to understand his science?"

...

your brother sounds a little like Phil Hartman's caveman lawyer character... "I'm just a caveman. Your complex world frightens me."

 

[Gulo Blue]

First of all, I love the show. Nothing like science that is explained in terms that even stupid people can understand. And I completely agree with your post. I believe the typical response to your last question would be, "Who are you to question God?".

Speaking of that, I was in a conversation with my brother in law (catholic) last weekend about God. Usually, that's a bad idea to mix religion and family in a conversation, but we never have issues.

Anyway, he was asking about evolution and the big bang and I brought up Cosmos. Offered to put it on tv since I knew the episodes were On Demand. His actual word for word response was, "That's okay. I don't like watching shows like that. God created science. Who am I to try to understand his science?"

I understand, though. It makes more sense that a highly intelligent, omnipotent being has been here FOREVER and decided in the middle of forever to create life on one tiny little speck out of billions of other specks.

I've seen facebook posts along these lines too. Catholics taking fundamentalist positions on science topics. Very disappointing.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I find it impossible to believe that our tiny dust-speck of a planet is the ONLY one that has sentient life upon it in our Milky Way galaxy, much less the billions of other solar systems within billions of galaxies in the observable universe. If there really is a God/Creator, why would He/She/It create such vastness, just as lifeless cosmic"window-dressing" for humankind to marvel and wonder at?

Meanwhile, the Pope is ready to baptize aliens.

http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/...tely-baptize-aliens-if-they-wanted-it/362106/

 

[Michchamp]

I've seen facebook posts along these lines too. Catholics taking fundamentalist positions on science topics. Very disappointing.

Disappointing, but not surprising

 

[Gulo Blue]

Disappointing, but not surprising

It's a little surprising. There used to be solid fundie/Catholic friction. We even made the KKK hate list.

 

[zyxt9]

Why would a Creator provide the infinite number of galaxies and stars? That requires a belief that humans were the only thing the Creator was concerned about creating. It seems a bit shallow to believe the only thing the Creator bothered with was humans.

As to the "science" behind the original post, you could easily have pointed to the existence of the other planets in our own solar system as pointing to the entire Universe. For only humans to exist does not require a Creator putting in the effort to create anything other than the Sun (for some obvious life preserving elements), the Moon (debatable, but some argue the Moon's tidal forces were required to help create life on Earth), and Earth. Nothing else is required, so why go through all the trouble?

Well, maybe in order to create "life", the formulas required the creation of the entire Universe in all of its glory. The calculations very likely fail without the Big Bang and subsequent condensation of the galaxies, stars, planets, moons, etc. What if the entire Universe was an absolute necessity in order to create life as we know it today? Slight deviations in the formulas would result in no life existing? So to create life on Earth (and elsewhere...for I do not believe a Creator would be concerned with creating life ONLY on Earth if the goal was to create life), and sustain it for as long as possible, required the entire Universe to be created. Not to mention there are the forces in the Universe required to sustain Earth, yet to Create those forces required far more than just this small ecosystem known as Earth. The Weak/Electro-Magnetic, Strong, and Gravity forces...and apparently the forces responsible for Dark Energy/Matter which are yet to be understood, likely were all necessary for the creation of Life.

I will likely be blasted for using an analogy, but here it is regardless. We can put a fish in a fish bowl, but that fish will die eventually. It needs nutrients. To sustain those nutrients requires an entire ecosystem. To sustain the species, it requires more than one fish, too. Now you need a larger fish bowl. You also need to keep away as many things from outside the fishbowl as possible to prevent an outside influence from destroying the fish, and the further away those harmful things are, the better the chances of the fish surviving. Maybe you want another species of fish in another fish bowl, and you do not want them trying to kill each other, so you keep them far enough away to prevent that from happening, thereby ensuring each species of fish is able to exist as long as possible. Not to mention you need to keep away the life threatening sources of radiation and explosions as much as possible. So life on Earth and the other planets can survive as long as possible.

To what end??? Well, for those who believe, maybe they get an answer to that question. Or maybe they don't. I'm good with it either way while still believing the Universe was created based on the scientific elements and evidence.

Why is there any need for any of this to exist otherwise? Why do we need forces of nature? Why is there a need for life at all? If there is no need for life, then why would any of this exist in the first place? The Universe has no need to exist other than to sustain life, so I choose to believe the Universe was Created in order that life may exist. There is no reason for all of it otherwise. You may respond that life isn't needed either, and is just a byproduct. Yet, why? Scientifically speaking, the Universe really holds no other true purpose. Seems like having the entirety of the Universe existing just to be a bunch of atoms that formed stars and rocks is pretty pointless. I personally need a Cause and Effect behind the Universe. Atheists do not need that, apparently...but to try and use Science as a way to prove the Universe does not exist is counter to what Science requires, which is Cause and Effect. A happens because of B. For that to be a Universal and Scientific continuum, it points to a Creator in my opinion.

Keep trying, I can play this game all day long. You will not scientifically disprove a Creator exists. The more you try, the more science points toward the Creator existing and demonstrating a purpose, a reason for why things are the way they are. Otherwise the entire Universe is completely pointless, and if that is the case, it does not need to exist. If it does not need to exist, then there is no reason for it, which is counter to everything Science has ever been about. Why would the Singularity(ies in Multi-verse) need to go through the Big Bang??? Science tries to answer in ways to rule out a Creator, but for me there is zero reason for any Big Bang to have ever happened and therefore would not have, other than for the purpose of creating Life.

Now thinking outside this realm, with all of the Energy that exists within the Universe, perhaps it is being used as some form of Energy source, and that capturing that Energy is why the Universe exists and Life as we know it is merely a byproduct. That concept still indicates a Creator made the Universe in order to capture its energy (or whatever) in order to fulfill some type of purpose.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Why would a Creator provide the infinite number of galaxies and stars? That requires a belief that humans were the only thing the Creator was concerned about creating. It seems a bit shallow to believe the only thing the Creator bothered with was humans.

As to the "science" behind the original post, you could easily have pointed to the existence of the other planets in our own solar system as pointing to the entire Universe. For only humans to exist does not require a Creator putting in the effort to create anything other than the Sun (for some obvious life preserving elements), the Moon (debatable, but some argue the Moon's tidal forces were required to help create life on Earth), and Earth. Nothing else is required, so why go through all the trouble?

Well, maybe in order to create "life", the formulas required the creation of the entire Universe in all of its glory. The calculations very likely fail without the Big Bang and subsequent condensation of the galaxies, stars, planets, moons, etc. What if the entire Universe was an absolute necessity in order to create life as we know it today? Slight deviations in the formulas would result in no life existing? So to create life on Earth (and elsewhere...for I do not believe a Creator would be concerned with creating life ONLY on Earth if the goal was to create life), and sustain it for as long as possible, required the entire Universe to be created. Not to mention there are the forces in the Universe required to sustain Earth, yet to Create those forces required far more than just this small ecosystem known as Earth. The Weak/Electro-Magnetic, Strong, and Gravity forces...and apparently the forces responsible for Dark Energy/Matter which are yet to be understood, likely were all necessary for the creation of Life.

I will likely be blasted for using an analogy, but here it is regardless. We can put a fish in a fish bowl, but that fish will die eventually. It needs nutrients. To sustain those nutrients requires an entire ecosystem. To sustain the species, it requires more than one fish, too. Now you need a larger fish bowl. You also need to keep away as many things from outside the fishbowl as possible to prevent an outside influence from destroying the fish, and the further away those harmful things are, the better the chances of the fish surviving. Maybe you want another species of fish in another fish bowl, and you do not want them trying to kill each other, so you keep them far enough away to prevent that from happening, thereby ensuring each species of fish is able to exist as long as possible. Not to mention you need to keep away the life threatening sources of radiation and explosions as much as possible. So life on Earth and the other planets can survive as long as possible.

To what end??? Well, for those who believe, maybe they get an answer to that question. Or maybe they don't. I'm good with it either way while still believing the Universe was created based on the scientific elements and evidence.

Why is there any need for any of this to exist otherwise? Why do we need forces of nature? Why is there a need for life at all? If there is no need for life, then why would any of this exist in the first place? The Universe has no need to exist other than to sustain life, so I choose to believe the Universe was Created in order that life may exist. There is no reason for all of it otherwise. You may respond that life isn't needed either, and is just a byproduct. Yet, why? Scientifically speaking, the Universe really holds no other true purpose. Seems like having the entirety of the Universe existing just to be a bunch of atoms that formed stars and rocks is pretty pointless. I personally need a Cause and Effect behind the Universe. Atheists do not need that, apparently...but to try and use Science as a way to prove the Universe does not exist is counter to what Science requires, which is Cause and Effect. A happens because of B. For that to be a Universal and Scientific continuum, it points to a Creator in my opinion.

Keep trying, I can play this game all day long. You will not scientifically disprove a Creator exists. The more you try, the more science points toward the Creator existing and demonstrating a purpose, a reason for why things are the way they are. Otherwise the entire Universe is completely pointless, and if that is the case, it does not need to exist. If it does not need to exist, then there is no reason for it, which is counter to everything Science has ever been about. Why would the Singularity(ies in Multi-verse) need to go through the Big Bang??? Science tries to answer in ways to rule out a Creator, but for me there is zero reason for any Big Bang to have ever happened and therefore would not have, other than for the purpose of creating Life.

Now thinking outside this realm, with all of the Energy that exists within the Universe, perhaps it is being used as some form of Energy source, and that capturing that Energy is why the Universe exists and Life as we know it is merely a byproduct. That concept still indicates a Creator made the Universe in order to capture its energy (or whatever) in order to fulfill some type of purpose.

 

[Monster]

Keep trying, I can play this game all day long. You will not scientifically disprove a Creator exists.

Scientifically disproving a creator is impossible. You're right. However, finding evidence that specific creators do not exist is possible. When the only proof of that creator is in a book, that book is open for scrutiny. When it makes certain scientific claims and those claims are easily put to shame, it's easy to figure out the book was written by people who have no divine knowledge.

Edit: And as for the cause and effect...there's this thing called the big bang...that is a cause. and an effect. A creator who has always existed has no cause. If the creator has always been, that sort of bursts your cause/effect argument.

 

[Monster]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Scientific_errors_in_the_Bible

 

[Gulo Blue]

When it makes certain scientific claims and those claims are easily put to shame, it's easy to figure out the book was written by people who have no divine knowledge.

There are other possibilities. It could be the authors wrote figuratively, it could be that the intent behind the divine inspiration was something other than to create a scientifically accurate document, or it could be a combination of divinely inspired writings along with completely human elements.

 

[turok]

I will likely be blasted for using an analogy, but here it is regardless. We can put a fish in a fish bowl, but that fish will die eventually. It needs nutrients. To sustain those nutrients requires an entire ecosystem. To sustain the species, it requires more than one fish, too. Now you need a larger fish bowl. You also need to keep away as many things from outside the fishbowl as possible to prevent an outside influence from destroying the fish, and the further away those harmful things are, the better the chances of the fish surviving. Maybe you want another species of fish in another fish bowl, and you do not want them trying to kill each other, so you keep them far enough away to prevent that from happening, thereby ensuring each species of fish is able to exist as long as possible. Not to mention you need to keep away the life threatening sources of radiation and explosions as much as possible. So life on Earth and the other planets can survive as long as possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda–Milky_Way_collision#Merger_remnanthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda–Milky_Way_collision

http://www.space.com/7734-explosive-nearby-star-threaten-earth.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-Earth_supernova

http://pan-starrs.ifa.hawaii.edu/public/asteroid-threat/asteroid_threat.html

 

[turok]

Meanwhile, the Pope is ready to baptize aliens.

http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/...tely-baptize-aliens-if-they-wanted-it/362106/

So the Pope would quickly be able to understand an alien's means of communication? LOL!! This assumes that the aliens would be able to expose themselves to our environment w/o the need for protective "covering" from our germs and bacteria, and whatever mix of gasses/chemicals they might need to "breathe"? Our gravity may be weaker or stronger that what they are accustomed to as well. They might want to "baptize" the Pope in reciprocation with their own kind of "holy water" as per their own"God(s)" wishes.

 

[Gulo Blue]

So the Pope would quickly be able to understand an alien's means of communication? LOL!! This assumes that the aliens would be able to expose themselves to our environment w/o the need for protective "covering" from our germs and bacteria, and whatever mix of gasses/chemicals they might need to "breathe"? Our gravity may be weaker or stronger that what they are accustomed to as well. They might want to "baptize" the Pope in reciprocation with their own kind of "holy water" as per their own"God(s)" wishes.

Well, there were conditions to his hypothetical. The alien asked to be baptized, so it must have learned one of our languages. Other conditions exist of course. You're going to have to use a different procedure if they're the aliens from Signs.

 

[Michchamp]

LOL... how would the aliens pay? Membership in the catholic church ain't free.

I guess gold is gold, even if it comes from Alpha Centauri VI, Planet Nebulon, or wherever, so they could drop a few nuggets in the old collection basket.

 

[Michchamp]

is anyone else seeing a banner ad for "Free Puritan Hard Drive Software" on this page?

"Wow! The PHD is fantastic! What a gift to Christ's Church! I love my Puritan Hard Drive!" - D. M. (CA, USA)

"Free Demo Includes Over 300 Reformation Books and MP3's"

I'm curious exactly WTF it is. "Hard Drive Software"... it makes your hard drive more christian I guess... in that particular strain of christianity you thought died out sometime in the 1600's Massachusetts.

 

[zyxt9]

LOL... how would the aliens pay? Membership in the catholic church ain't free.

I guess gold is gold, even if it comes from Alpha Centauri VI, Planet Nebulon, or wherever, so they could drop a few nuggets in the old collection basket.

There is the planet that is pure diamond...that ought to cover one or two alien baptisms.

 

[zyxt9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda–Milky_Way_collision#Merger_remnanthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda–Milky_Way_collision

http://www.space.com/7734-explosive-nearby-star-threaten-earth.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-Earth_supernova

http://pan-starrs.ifa.hawaii.edu/public/asteroid-threat/asteroid_threat.html

Exactly, you have to keep things far enough apart to allow life to be created, become sustained, reach a level of intelligence, and continue to improve intellectually for a prolonged period of time. If the things you cited were closer, we would be toast, or not exist in the first place.

 

[Gulo Blue]

There is the planet that is pure diamond...that ought to cover one or two alien baptisms.

DeBeers won't let anyone touch it.