Another school shooting

Gulo Blue · Feb 21, 2018

It feels like the 1st amendment isn't held up on the pedestal it's used to be between this and the NFL players taking a knee. What happened to "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Michchamp · Feb 21, 2018

Gulo Blue said:
It feels like the 1st amendment isn't held up on the pedestal it's used to be between this and the NFL players taking a knee. What happened to "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

It's hard to dismiss complaints of minorities and working class people if you listen to them. therefore, for the Right, the only proper course of action is not to listen to them.

contrary to this, you almost cannot avoid the views of the rich/powerful. they own the TV networks, radio stations, newspapers, magazines, etc.

Spartanmack · Feb 21, 2018

michchamp said:
you either glossed over or intentionally ignored paragraphs 2, 3, & 4 of my post in which I discussed the merits of his argument.

The fact that he's a racist, lying twerp is just gravy on top.

you didn't discuss the merits of his argument. you just attempted to dismsiss them offhand without justification. And he's not even remotely racist, except by your definition which as we all know is anyone you disagree with is racist.

Spartanmack · Feb 21, 2018

dubbsco said:
There are a ton of teens that are lying down in front of the White House to protest. Really a powerful thing to see the younger generation do.

indeed. as with everything else, we should defer to teenagers and look to them for guidance - lord knows they're the most knowledgeable and responsible age group. If the sight of teenagers laying down doing nothing doesn't stir something inside you, you're dead inside or you have teenage kids living in your house where you see them laying down doing nothing all the time. Powerful stuff.

So why are those on the left on one hand calling for us to listen to teenagers on the issue of gun control, but on the other hand pushing for gun control measures like raising the minimum age to own a gun to 21? Are they responsible and mature enough to decide what our gun laws should be but not responsible and mature enough to actually own the device for which their counsel is being sought to drive policy?

tinselwolverine · Feb 21, 2018

Spartanmack said:
So why are those on the left on one hand calling for us to listen to teenagers on the issue of gun control, but on the other hand pushing for gun control measures like raising the minimum age to own a gun to 21? Are they responsible and mature enough to decide what our gun laws should be but not responsible and mature enough to actually own the device for which their counsel is being sought to drive policy?

I did find ironic that the teenage protest is tied, to a degree, to Trump's consideration of denying certain gun ownership privileges of that very group - the 18-21 year olds, anyway; that said, people in that age group are the most likely to be slaughtered by some nut job their own age on a high school or college campus.

So maybe that's it. Maybe it's a risk reward thing. Maybe a whole lot more of them would exchange a privilege that likely almost none of them would use - I know I never had any desire to go out and get a semi-automatic assault rifle when I was that age, and nobody else at that age I knew at the time did either, as far as I know - in exchange for possibly reducing the risk that they themselves would be slaughtered.

tigermud · Feb 21, 2018

sggatecl said:
Make it so you can't join the military until 21 if you're going that route.

Years ago I tried to rent a car and couldn?t cuz I wasn?t 21 yet. I thought that was ridiculous I told the nice lady behind the counter so I can die for my country but I can?t rent a car r u freakin kidding me. She didn?t seem to care though and I moved on

tinselwolverine · Feb 21, 2018

sggatecl said:
Make it so you can't join the military until 21 if you're going that route.

They're not equivalent.

In an all volunteer army, if a person believes that it's wrong to enlist before the age of 21 because they can't legally drink or rent a car, that person can wait until they're 21.

No one is forcing anyone to join the military before they're able to legally drink or rent a car.

turok · Feb 21, 2018

If we ever go to war or invade another country who can more capably fight back, such as vs NK or Iran, I really doubt that it would be with entirely all-enlistment forces.

The invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan saw the use of military contractors for infrastructure support, "policing" and maintenance, funded largely through borrowing billions upon billions from China @ usurious interest rates. That will definitely not be the case vs Iraq and NK, the former due to China obtaining most of the crude oil from the former, and b/c of obvious reasons for the latter.

tinselwolverine · Feb 21, 2018

turok said:
If we ever go to war or invade another country who can more capably fight back, such as vs NK or Iran, I really doubt that it would be with entirely all-enlistment forces.

Who knows?

I thought I understood that Iraq had a pretty formidable army for a country that wasn't the US, Russia, China or the UK...maybe Pakistan and India are also a notch above what Iraq was...and the all volunteer army seemed to not have much of a problem dispatching them.

I think I understand that the US army has developed into a superior technology fighting for which potentially displaces the need for manpower.

Spartanmack · Feb 21, 2018

tinselwolverine said:
I did find ironic that the teenage protest is tied, to a degree, to Trump's consideration of denying certain gun ownership privileges of that very group - the 18-21 year olds, anyway; that said, people in that age group are the most likely to be slaughtered by some nut job their own age on a high school or college campus.

So maybe that's it. Maybe it's a risk reward thing. Maybe a whole lot more of them would exchange a privilege that likely almost none of them would use - I know I never had any desire to go out and get a semi-automatic assault rifle when I was that age, and nobody else at that age I knew at the time did either, as far as I know - in exchange for possibly reducing the risk that they themselves would be slaughtered.

I get why they are doing it - what I don't get is why we are suddenly giving them credibility on gun control, particularly when we're talking about excluding them from owning guns and when we don't turn to them for their guidance on other policy issues. Sure, they're more likely to get shot in school, they outnumber adults in school by 20:1 or more but they're not more likely to be the victims of such violence in the workplace, on the subway during rush hour, at a music festival, etc.

Spartanmack · Feb 21, 2018

turok said:
If we ever go to war or invade another country who can more capably fight back, such as vs NK or Iran, I really doubt that it would be with entirely all-enlistment forces.

The invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan saw the use of military contractors for infrastructure support, "policing" and maintenance, funded largely through borrowing billions upon billions from China @ usurious interest rates. That will definitely not be the case vs Iraq and NK, the former due to China obtaining most of the crude oil from the former, and b/c of obvious reasons for the latter.

what interest rate were/are they charging us?

tinselwolverine · Feb 21, 2018

Spartanmack said:
I get why they are doing it - what I don't get is why we are suddenly giving them credibility on gun control, particularly when we're talking about excluding them from owning guns and when we don't turn to them for their guidance on other policy issues. Sure, they're more likely to get shot in school, they outnumber adults in school by 20:1 or more but they're not more likely to be the victims of such violence in the workplace, on the subway during rush hour, at a music festival, etc.

Are we really even turning to them for guidance on this policy issue?

Seems to me they just kinda showed up at the White House on their own.

Some people think it's noble; I think pretty much everybody does doesn't find anything wrong with it anyway.

Like, I'm not jumping out of my shoes to give the teens credit, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it either.

turok · Feb 21, 2018

tinselwolverine said:
Who knows?
/
I thought I understood that Iraq had a pretty formidable army for a country that wasn't the US, Russia, China or the UK...maybe Pakistan and India are also a notch above what Iraq was...and the all volunteer army seemed to not have much of a problem dispatching them.

I think I understand that the US army has developed into a superior technology fighting for which potentially displaces the need for manpower.

That is essentially what the US did during "Desert Storm" in the early 90s, yet it did did not manage to depose Saddam, and wound up using a "boots on the ground" invasion by '03.

If we were so successful in dispatching them, then why did Obama inherit both occupations in '09?

tinselwolverine · Feb 21, 2018

turok said:
If we ever go to war or invade another country who can more capably fight back, such as vs NK or Iran, I really doubt that it would be with entirely all-enlistment forces.

The invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan saw the use of military contractors for infrastructure support, "policing" and maintenance, funded largely through borrowing billions upon billions from China @ usurious interest rates. That will definitely not be the case vs Iraq and NK, the former due to China obtaining most of the crude oil from the former, and b/c of obvious reasons for the latter.

But experts had also said the Iraqi military retained significant force, especially in the Republican Guard and Special Republican Guard. Despite its shortcomings, some experts had considered it the most effective military force in the Gulf region.

From Council on Foreign Relations.

Iran Military Strength

North Korean Military Strength

So according to these data; Iran wasn't as powerful as Iraq before the war, and North Korea now ranks a little behind Iran.

So who knows?

Michchamp · Feb 21, 2018

Spartanmack said:
you didn't discuss the merits of his argument. you just attempted to dismsiss them offhand without justification. And he's not even remotely racist, except by your definition which as we all know is anyone you disagree with is racist.

I clearly did. But keep hammering away at your keyboard under the misguided notion that "being argumentative" is the same thing as "making an argument."

Spartanmack said:
indeed. as with everything else, we should defer to teenagers and look to them for guidance - lord knows they're the most knowledgeable and responsible age group. If the sight of teenagers laying down doing nothing doesn't stir something inside you, you're dead inside or you have teenage kids living in your house where you see them laying down doing nothing all the time. Powerful stuff.

So why are those on the left on one hand calling for us to listen to teenagers on the issue of gun control, but on the other hand pushing for gun control measures like raising the minimum age to own a gun to 21? Are they responsible and mature enough to decide what our gun laws should be but not responsible and mature enough to actually own the device for which their counsel is being sought to drive policy?

you might have a point - sort of - if the only people calling for gun control were under 21.

but "not having a point" never stopped you before, so hammer away...

turok · Feb 21, 2018

Spartanmack said:
what interest rate were/are they charging us?

The costs of both have been estimated to be ~$8 trilllion by the time that the last of our involvement personnel and equipment wise used is tallied up. I don't know what the exact figures are, but China got a free ride as well, by our troops keeping the shipping lanes open for their crude oil supply, imported from Iran through the Strait of Hormuz.

Spartanmack · Feb 21, 2018

tinselwolverine said:
Are we really even turning to them for guidance on this policy issue?

Seems to me they just kinda showed up at the White House on their own.

Some people think it's noble; I think pretty much everybody does doesn't find anything wrong with it anyway.

Like, I'm not jumping out of my shoes to give the teens credit, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it either.

they're getting a ton of press particularly from the anti-gun talking heads, politicians are referencing them and their actions, school administrators are dismissing them and granting excused absences etc, etc.

I don't have any problem with them doing it, it's their right to express themselves. I don't think they should be excused from class for protests, but on their time and their dime, have at it. Just don't tell me we should be basing policy on their opinions, or that it's "powerful stuff" to see the next generation speaking out - meaning clearly that we should listen to them. I feel the same way about kids on either side of the debate.

Spartanmack · Feb 21, 2018

turok said:
The costs of both have been estimated to be ~$8 trilllion by the time that the last of our involvement personnel and equipment wise used is tallied up. I don't know what the exact figures are, but China got a free ride as well, by our troops keeping the shipping lanes open for their crude oil supply, imported from Iran through the Strait of Hormuz.

that's not usurious interest rates. China is the largest foreign holder of US government debt, the interest rate on that debt is near all time lows, hardly usurious. Say what you will about the totals, we didn't pay the tab on Uncle Sam's Capital One card.

Spartanmack · Feb 21, 2018

michchamp said:
I clearly did. But keep hammering away at your keyboard under the misguided notion that "being argumentative" is the same thing as "making an argument."

you think you did, but you were just being argumentative.

michchamp said:
you might have a point - sort of - if the only people calling for gun control were under 21.

but "not having a point" never stopped you before, so hammer away...

Why would my point hinge on only people under 21 calling for gun control? It doesn't, you make no sense, but that never stopped you before...

turok · Feb 21, 2018

Spartanmack said:
that's not usurious interest rates. China is the largest foreign holder of US government debt, the interest rate on that debt is near all time lows, hardly usurious. Say what you will about the totals, we didn't pay the tab on Uncle Sam's Capital One card.

That includes all foreign debt, not just from borrowing for undeclared "wars"

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