Thoughts on Israel

[Michchamp]

Ranting about the evil Muslims is arguing in favor of the state of Israel? Your racism is so deep seated you don't even know it.

 

[Spartanmack]

Ranting about the evil Muslims is arguing in favor of the state of Israel? Your racism is so deep seated you don't even know it.

Nobody is ranting about the evil Muslims. I was merely saying I was surprised by the % of Muslims in various countries that hold extreme views on those topics. I did say that the statement that Israel as a country is no better than Iran is absurd. And I stand by that statement which is based on facts like the Iranian regime kills people for being gay or some religion other than their own and persecutes women for being raped, wearing the wrong clothes or just being women and has the stated goal of wiping Israel off the face of the earth - not because Iranians are muslims. If you think that makes me a racist, that only confirms what I think about you, which is that you are an idiot.

 

[Sbee]

Ranting about the evil Muslims is arguing in favor of the state of Israel? Your racism is so deep seated you don't even know it.

I'm not a flag waver for organized religion but I do realize that one is much worse than all of the others.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I'm not a flag waver for organized religion but I do realize that one is much worse than all of the others.

Buckeye-ism?

 

[Mitchrapp]

I'm not sure why it's evil because someone thinks more highly of Israel than some Muslim state..

 

[Michchamp]

I'm not a flag waver for organized religion but I do realize that one is much worse than all of the others.

I'm not defending Islam, or the actions cited. It's not as extreme across the board though. There are more tolerant, liberal Islamic nations.

Even Iran was more or less a secular nation, prior to the 1978 revolution, which the US and UK bear some of the blame for. We destabilized a democratically elected government in the 50's for the Shah... paving the way for the real extremists to come to power.

Regardless... it doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand.

 

[Spartanmack]

So you're suddenly concerned about thread hijacking now that you've put your foot in your mouth and no ideologues have jumped to your defense?

Of course it's not as extreme across the board - the range for given countries is 30-84% so it's not even "as extreme across the board" for the data shown. So how extreme is it? I'll help you out with the math - the muslim population of those countries make up 35% of the world's 1.6B muslims. The weighted average of muslims in those countries who share that view is 56%. So that means even if 0% of the world's remaining 1.04B muslims thought death was an appropriate punishment for leaving islam, you still have 20% of the global population of muslims who do believe it is. If 1/2 of them believe it, it's 52.1% globally, 1/3 believe it, then it's 41.2%, 1/5 believe it, then 33%, 1/10, then it's 26.0%.

Even at the minimum of 20%, it's a pretty disturbing number and I don't think you can justify calling anyone a racist if they are surprised or even horrified or appalled or all of the above by it, particularly someone who constantly goes to the lengths you do to berate and belittle people for having faith in any god, let alone one who preaches love and tolerance. Maybe it's you who is in fact the intolerant piece of shit - and a hypocrite.

And by the way, Iran before 1978 is totally irrelevant - it no longer exists.

 

[Michchamp]

So you're suddenly concerned about thread hijacking now that you've put your foot in your mouth and no ideologues have jumped to your defense?

...

I wasn't the one who changed the subject.

 

[Spartanmack]

I wasn't the one who changed the subject.

But that's never stopped you from happily participating in arguments on a hijacked thread in the past. And I wasn't the one who changed the subject either.

 

[tinselwolverine]

I'm having trouble figuring out what the subject has been changed to, and what it was changed from.

 

[Spartanmack]

I'm having trouble what the subject has been changed to, and what it was changed from.

Near as I can tell, the subject has changed from who is on the higher moral plane, Israel or Palestine and/or others who oppose Israel's existence to whether or not the thread has been hijacked and who hijacked it (if they did).

 

[Michchamp]

I'm having trouble figuring out what the subject has been changed to, and what it was changed from.

the topic of the thread is the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

its difficult to discuss that without acknowledging what is essentially an apartheid situation where the Palestinian population restricted in their ability to travel, and subject to trade embargoes.

and also the extreme power disparity between Palestine and Israel... you have a nuclear power (that refuses to sign the NPT ), well equipped with one of the most advanced air forces in the world, modern tanks, missiles, etc (courtesy of the US taxpayer), and extremely powerful lobbyists around the eorld, against a largely impoverished opponent armed with some unguided rockets, suicide vests, and rocks?

if you support Israel's right to keep doing what its doing ... its probably better to talk about how bad Muslims are rather than address the situation in the occupied territories

 

[Thumb]

I'm not a flag waver for organized religion but I do realize that one is much worse than all of the others.

That POV is so narrow minded you could stack it 10 wide and slide it through the eye of a needle.

That poll you posted, if it were taken in Texas, Mississippi, Georgia and Florida and the question was death penalty for people leaving the christian church I bet you would be surprised at the %'s in favor.

There are just as many rules in the bible about putting people to death as in the Quran. The only difference is how the majority interprets it.

 

[Thumb]

the topic of the thread is the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

its difficult to discuss that without acknowledging what is essentially an apartheid situation where the Palestinian population restricted in their ability to travel, and subject to trade embargoes.

and also the extreme power disparity between Palestine and Israel... you have a nuclear power (that refuses to sign the NPT ), well equipped with one of the most advanced air forces in the world, modern tanks, missiles, etc (courtesy of the US taxpayer), and extremely powerful lobbyists around the eorld, against a largely impoverished opponent armed with some unguided rockets, suicide vests, and rocks?

if you support Israel's right to keep doing what its doing ... its probably better to talk about how bad Muslims are rather than address the situation in the occupied territories

Who was the guy not long ago talking about the Ukraine how he should Molotov them or pick them off with a sniper rifle for unjustly settling his land? I wonder if he thinks Israel should get a pass for doing the same thing?

EDIT: poster in question was zyxt who I believe converted to Judaism, so I'm guessing Israel get's a pass.

 

[Spartanmack]

the topic of the thread is the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

its difficult to discuss that without acknowledging what is essentially an apartheid situation where the Palestinian population restricted in their ability to travel, and subject to trade embargoes.

and also the extreme power disparity between Palestine and Israel... you have a nuclear power (that refuses to sign the NPT ), well equipped with one of the most advanced air forces in the world, modern tanks, missiles, etc (courtesy of the US taxpayer), and extremely powerful lobbyists around the eorld, against a largely impoverished opponent armed with some unguided rockets, suicide vests, and rocks?

if you support Israel's right to keep doing what its doing ... its probably better to talk about how bad Muslims are rather than address the situation in the occupied territories

This is just nonsense. The thread was about who was worse not the conflict itself. and the disparity in militaristic power is not an indication of who is worse - just which guy is likely to kick the shit out of the other. anyone who thinks wars should be a "fair fight" is in a word, stupid. If there is going to be a war, it's just good strategy to be exponentially more powerful than your enemy. Everyone knows that. Are you really criticizing Israel because instead of lobbing crude bombs at innocent people, they do this to their enemies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zINcBfEo-7g

Notice the pedestrian less than 100 yds from the blast walks away unharmed?

And by the way, Israel did not build such military superiority to fight teenagers throwing rocks or extremists launching rockets into cities hoping to hit schools, hospitals and shopping centers. Israeli military might is a function of the constant threat they live under from virtually every country that surrounds it. In case you're unaware of the history, Israel has been attacked in multi-front assaults a few times in the last 60-some years. So Israel refuses to sign the NPT - they don't even acknowledge that they have nukes but so what? Would you sign the NPT knowing you were the only country singled out by another country for their desire to drop nukes on you?

 

[TheVictors]

The Israeli military is about as bad ass as it gets in the world and it is incredibly well funded by the US and allies. To compare the military might isn't fair and never has been. I recall once the Israeli air force striking a single house in Turkey where a suspected Islamic cell leader was. The house and leader were eviscerated but both houses adjacent to the one bombed were totally (relatively) unscathed.

I've got no horse in the race but it is a 5,000yr old conflict that seeminly will never end. Like Monster, it was always the presumption that Israel was the "good guy" in the conflict, but as you learn more and get older, sure seems the Palestinians got royally screwed by the UN after WWII.

 

[mhughes0021]

the topic of the thread is the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

its difficult to discuss that without acknowledging what is essentially an apartheid situation where the Palestinian population restricted in their ability to travel, and subject to trade embargoes.

and also the extreme power disparity between Palestine and Israel... you have a nuclear power (that refuses to sign the NPT ), well equipped with one of the most advanced air forces in the world, modern tanks, missiles, etc (courtesy of the US taxpayer), and extremely powerful lobbyists around the eorld, against a largely impoverished opponent armed with some unguided rockets, suicide vests, and rocks?

if you support Israel's right to keep doing what its doing ... its probably better to talk about how bad Muslims are rather than address the situation in the occupied territories

i try to relate issues to things I know. I know we have a religion prevalently practiced here that is headed by a bunch of priests that fuck children. We as a country did nothing to stop that religion from practicing. Therefor, we have no "moral ground" to stand on let alone judge others based on their beliefs.

 

[Spartanmack]

The Israeli military is about as bad ass as it gets in the world and it is incredibly well funded by the US and allies. To compare the military might isn't fair and never has been. I recall once the Israeli air force striking a single house in Turkey where a suspected Islamic cell leader was. The house and leader were eviscerated but both houses adjacent to the one bombed were totally (relatively) unscathed.

I've got no horse in the race but it is a 5,000yr old conflict that seeminly will never end. Like Monster, it was always the presumption that Israel was the "good guy" in the conflict, but as you learn more and get older, sure seems the Palestinians got royally screwed by the UN after WWII.

I don't have a horse in the race either as I don't think it's so cut and dry that you can easily form an opinion as to who has the more legitimate claim to the land. But I do think given one side's desire for the indiscriminate wholesale destruction of the other vs the others goal to exist without that threat, it's not hard to come to the conclusion that while not perfect, Israel exists on a higher moral plane. Also, given this significant difference in their desires, it's a good thing that Israel is the one with the military might in their favor.

As for the accusations of racism, I have no doubt if chump thought Israel was better and I took the side of the muslim countries, I would be painted as an anti-semite. If you can't argue facts, you tend to resort to character assassination.

 

[Michchamp]

This is just nonsense. The thread was about who was worse not the conflict itself. and the disparity in militaristic power is not an indication of who is worse - just which guy is likely to kick the shit out of the other. anyone who thinks wars should be a "fair fight" is in a word, stupid. If there is going to be a war, it's just good strategy to be exponentially more powerful than your enemy. Everyone knows that. Are you really criticizing Israel because instead of lobbing crude bombs at innocent people, they do this to their enemies:

[dumb pointless video link removed]

Notice the pedestrian less than 100 yds from the blast walks away unharmed?

And by the way, Israel did not build such military superiority to fight teenagers throwing rocks or extremists launching rockets into cities hoping to hit schools, hospitals and shopping centers. Israeli military might is a function of the constant threat they live under from virtually every country that surrounds it. In case you're unaware of the history, Israel has been attacked in multi-front assaults a few times in the last 60-some years. So Israel refuses to sign the NPT - they don't even acknowledge that they have nukes but so what? Would you sign the NPT knowing you were the only country singled out by another country for their desire to drop nukes on you?

jesus, can you learn how to post videos correctly without screwing up the formatting? the internet isn't that difficult.

I'm talking about the conflict. "Who is worse" is a pretty stupid way to frame it, but... you are stupid, so that is the way you want to look at it. It's a stupid way to frame it, because you can find some awful actors on both sides of the conflict. There are some extreme Israelis and Palestinians.

But you look at the policies and the actual effects of both sides action... one side (blockaded into specific areas, impoverished, and embargoed by Israel) throws rocks and launches some rockets, the other side (which is a nuclear power, receiving billions in U.S. Military aid per year) responds with precision guided munitions in airstrikes that level city blocks in Gaza.

It's hard to justify Israel's actions here. That doesn't make them "worse" ... I don't wish anything bad on the people of Israel. but it means I don't support the actions of the Israeli government.

to address your points... I never said war has to be a fair fight. straw man.

I never said Israel does not have a right to defend itself, so you repeatedly mentioning the threats they face is another straw man.

You cherry pick a video of an Israeli strike to show that Israel doesn't kill civilians. You should google Israeli human rights violations for a list of things they've participated in since 1973 (the last time they were seriously at war). cherry picking a video is misleading, and fails to take into account things like this, this, this, this, this...

You cite Israel's external threats as justification here for their immense military advantage over their neighbors. That doesn't have anything to do with their treatment of the Palestinians, which is what I am critical of, and I believe is not defensible. They can have a strong military and not oversee an apartheid situation where Palestinians (or Arab Israelis) are actually second class citizens (or worse...) under Israeli law.

If Israel is really that shining beacon of democracy in the Middle East like jdilco thinks, they wouldn't do things like this. They wouldn't have a laundry list of human rights abuses and atrocities to their name; they wouldn't have had a war criminal for president. they would be better than that.

 

[Spartanmack]

jesus, can you learn how to post videos correctly without screwing up the formatting? the internet isn't that difficult.

I'm talking about the conflict. "Who is worse" is a pretty stupid way to frame it, but... you are stupid, so that is the way you want to look at it. It's a stupid way to frame it, because you can find some awful actors on both sides of the conflict. There are some extreme Israelis and Palestinians.

But you look at the policies and the actual effects of both sides action... one side (blockaded into specific areas, impoverished, and embargoed by Israel) throws rocks and launches some rockets, the other side (which is a nuclear power, receiving billions in U.S. Military aid per year) responds with precision guided munitions in airstrikes that level city blocks in Gaza.

It's hard to justify Israel's actions here. That doesn't make them "worse" ... I don't wish anything bad on the people of Israel. but it means I don't support the actions of the Israeli government.

to address your points... I never said war has to be a fair fight. straw man.

I never said Israel does not have a right to defend itself, so you repeatedly mentioning the threats they face is another straw man.

You cherry pick a video of an Israeli strike to show that Israel doesn't kill civilians. You should google Israeli human rights violations for a list of things they've participated in since 1973 (the last time they were seriously at war). cherry picking a video is misleading, and fails to take into account things like this, this, this, this, this...

You cite Israel's external threats as justification here for their immense military advantage over their neighbors. That doesn't have anything to do with their treatment of the Palestinians, which is what I am critical of, and I believe is not defensible. They can have a strong military and not oversee an apartheid situation where Palestinians (or Arab Israelis) are actually second class citizens (or worse...) under Israeli law.

If Israel is really that shining beacon of democracy in the Middle East like jdilco thinks, they wouldn't do things like this. They wouldn't have a laundry list of human rights abuses and atrocities to their name; they wouldn't have had a war criminal for president. they would be better than that.

No, if it was about the conflict and not "who is worse" we would be discussing things like the origin of the conflict and who had the righteous claim to the land. It's different but I wouldn't expect an anti-semitic idiot like you to know the difference (and clearly, you don't).

You brought up the point about the extreme power disparity as if fairness has any bearing on who fights more dirty than the other. Me telling you the difference in military might is irrelevant and a stupid point is not a strawman - you brought it up. You also mentioned that the Israeli lobby is so powerful while completely ignoring all the oil rich Islamic nations that routinely gang up on Israel at the UN (and in ill-fated military attacks).

Further saying that the Israeli military was not built to crush a bunch of terrorists and shitheads who throw rocks at guys with tanks to refute your retarded statement is also not a strawman.

I've clearly said Israel is not perfect, just that they're better than Iran and Hamas/Hezbollah which have the support of the overwhelming majority of the Palestinians. Saying that I ignore Israeli human rights violations then listing bad things they've done proves nothing other than that you are an idiot for thinking it does - and I'm sure the list for Hamas/Hezbollah is twice as long and far more horrific.

Do you really think going back to 1973 before laser guided missiles, drones and other technologies that didn't exist even 15 years ago even applies today? Israel may bulldoze some empty houses but they don't carpet bomb entire neighborhoods like you say, but the the Palestinians do fire rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas. You know nothing of what you are talking about.

For someone who is so concerned about fairness and due process, you don't seem to have any problem concluding Ariel Sharon (who by the way, is not and never was the President of Israel) is a war criminal based on hearsay from up to 61 years ago. You are such a hack.

And finally, if they're not worse then what the fuck are we arguing about? Is it your contention that I support the actions of the Israelis? If so, talk about straw man arguments. Please find a quote where I justify or support any of it. All I said in response to Thumb was that while not perfect, they're clearly better than Iran and in response to you that they're also better than Hamas/Hezbollah.