Tigers 2017 Season Debacle, trades, releases and fired thread

[Mitchrapp]

in my opinion, I just don't think the son has as much experience and knowledge with the Tigers team, that is all facets of the organization, top to bottom and us fans who are left in limbo.

He entrusts Avila who when DD was let go, the whole front office outside of the players who the fans love, Al and Willie, etc. should have been booted.
Mr. Ilitch, in failing health, couldn't or wouldn't, and the son was too busy with all the other Ilitch holdings.

This is why we have a clusterfuck with Avila. He doesn't know if he is coming or going. Avila just isn't top man material.

I think you're right. I remember sometime ago I read an article that Mr. I's son and daughter didn't really care about the baseball club..

 

[tomdalton22]

in my opinion, I just don't think the son has as much experience and knowledge with the Tigers team, that is all facets of the organization, top to bottom and us fans who are left in limbo.

He entrusts Avila who when DD was let go, the whole front office outside of the players who the fans love, Al and Willie, etc. should have been booted.
Mr. Ilitch, in failing health, couldn't or wouldn't, and the son was too busy with all the other Ilitch holdings.

This is why we have a clusterfuck with Avila. He doesn't know if he is coming or going. Avila just isn't top man material.

I read that AA was tearing up when he let JD go. That isn't the type of person that should be running an organization....they need someone that is strictly business.

 

[kalinecountry]

I read that AA was tearing up when he let JD go. That isn't the type of person that should be running an organization....they need someone that is strictly business.

That might be true. If we are led to believe what he said about JD, that he has known him since he was a teenager, and iirc also from the Miami area,
and that JD was like a son to him, then yes.

and again, as we both say in different words, not the man to be making these decisions.

and I said this before, way back before the start of this season, that it just did not sound like a smart thing to tell the baseball world and especially every other GM and baseball team that the Tigers were going to cut payroll and that everyone was available.
You shut you pie hole and do your business in baseball, other wise you will be offered a nickel instead of what you should get in return, teams will offer you jack shit because "they Know the Tigers are desparate.

If they were or not, IF he didn't say a word about their intent, other teams could only speculate/guess.

 

[byco42]

I read that AA was tearing up when he let JD go. That isn't the type of person that should be running an organization....they need someone that is strictly business.

Some one like this guy.

 

[Rebbiv]

The Detroit Tigers placed Justin Verlander on revocable waivers today, said a source. Verlander has 10-5 rights, so he can veto any trade. And the Tigers aren't looking to just dump the $56 million left on his contract in 2018-2019, so they're not likely to let him walk if another team claims him. If Verlander clears, Detroit will have the freedom to talk trade with the other 29 clubs through the end of August. While this is basically a procedural move, there's a little intrigue in Verlander's case.

 

[tomdalton22]

JV cleared waivers

 

[tomdalton22]

https://www.mlbdailydish.com/2017/8/4/16084124/mlb-trade-rumors-august-trade-candidates


Justin Verlander, RHP, Tigers — After bouncing back and nearly winning the AL Cy Young award last season, the 34-year-old Verlander has struggled in 2017, posting a 4.29 ERA and 1.44 WHIP. The biggest issue with him is that he’s still owed $56 million over the next two seasons with a $22 million option for 2020. With that said, he’s still rather adept at eating innings, and he’s a proven postseason performer. That could make him a perfect fit for a team like the Astros that could use another proven starter and can afford to take on payroll. Verlander has already cleared waivers, meaning he’s eligible to be dealt to any club.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Everyone always says the same thing about JV this year in every article I read "Struggled in 2017." But if you look further, he's pitched well lately and if you remove some Cleveland starts the ERA goes down quite a bit. Best fastball he's had since 2011.. There is a lot of points in his favor. But everyone just looks at ERA, and WHIP. He was the best SP on the market pre July 31 deadline.

 

[kalinecountry]

Tom I get the feeling you have wanted JV traded ever since he signed his contract extension.
If you were the GM I would say you would be like Billy Bean of the A's and trade off players before they get the big bucks. Granted the A's have to as they don't draw much, but I just get the feeling from all you post you would be tighter than two coats of paint or tighter than the bark on a tree as the Tigers GM.

 

[tomdalton22]

Tom I get the feeling you have wanted JV traded ever since he signed his contract extension.
If you were the GM I would say you would be like Billy Bean of the A's and trade off players before they get the big bucks. Granted the A's have to as they don't draw much, but I just get the feeling from all you post you would be tighter than two coats of paint or tighter than the bark on a tree as the Tigers GM.

I wouldn't be tight like that but I would be responsible. I didn't like either of the contract extensions that were given to Miggy or JV because of the timing. JV had 2 seasons left and they sign him the off season right after he wins the Cy Young AND MVP? That makes no sense...you are working from a HUGE disadvantage when negotiating. That was stupid. He should have been a FA after his 2014 season, the year he had a 4.54 ERA and he was 31 years old. That's when you negotiate....not after his MVP year. Same with Miggy. They signed him right AFTER he has back to back MVP seasons when he still had 2 years left on his contract. He would have been a free agent in 2016 when he was 33 years old. Both of those were stupid moves that I wouldn't have made. Not when the two players were on the wrong side of 30. Now, locking players in when they are young...like Miggy's first contract with the Tigers...that is good business. Kind of like the Giants do.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I wouldn't be tight like that but I would be responsible. I didn't like either of the contract extensions that were given to Miggy or JV because of the timing. JV had 2 seasons left and they sign him the off season right after he wins the Cy Young AND MVP? That makes no sense...you are working from a HUGE disadvantage when negotiating. That was stupid. He should have been a FA after his 2014 season, the year he had a 4.54 ERA and he was 31 years old. That's when you negotiate....not after his MVP year. Same with Miggy. They signed him right AFTER he has back to back MVP seasons when he still had 2 years left on his contract. He would have been a free agent in 2016 when he was 33 years old. Both of those were stupid moves that I wouldn't have made. Not when the two players were on the wrong side of 30. Now, locking players in when they are young...like Miggy's first contract with the Tigers...that is good business. Kind of like the Giants do.

Superstars get those contracts, unless you're a low payroll floundering team you pay the stars. The pickle that is Detroit is not because of those two contracts it has been the Sanchez deal, the Zimmerman deal, the Upton deal, the 2 years 16m Pelfrey deal (That still cracks me up). You can pay 2 guys, but not 5-6 like Detroit or eventually that catches up..

 

[Thumb]

I wouldn't be tight like that but I would be responsible. I didn't like either of the contract extensions that were given to Miggy or JV because of the timing. JV had 2 seasons left and they sign him the off season right after he wins the Cy Young AND MVP? That makes no sense...you are working from a HUGE disadvantage when negotiating. That was stupid. He should have been a FA after his 2014 season, the year he had a 4.54 ERA and he was 31 years old. That's when you negotiate....not after his MVP year. Same with Miggy. They signed him right AFTER he has back to back MVP seasons when he still had 2 years left on his contract. He would have been a free agent in 2016 when he was 33 years old. Both of those were stupid moves that I wouldn't have made. Not when the two players were on the wrong side of 30. Now, locking players in when they are young...like Miggy's first contract with the Tigers...that is good business. Kind of like the Giants do.

This is the dumbest thing I have ever read. You would have waited until they were free agents and some other team would have poached them. At the time of those contracts were were still very much a W.S. contender/favorite and you call resigning who was at the time the best pitcher and hitter in baseball to extensions stupid moves....

I realize you are kind of dumb and this has been explained before, but sports contracts are often not about paying for what you will get, but what you have already got. How many young players play at a multi million level yet make relatively nothing compared to others? The contract negotiation is about paying the player based on past performance, not saying well I'm tomdalton22 and I know that you are going to regress some after you turn 30 so I won't extend you and instead I'll keep payroll low while ticket prices are high and so is TV revenue and somehow call myself a smart GM while not having any players who will put people in the seats.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Plus the Ilitch's have so much money the Tigers' are like McDonald's compared to their 5 star holdings.

 

[tomdalton22]

This is the dumbest thing I have ever read. You would have waited until they were free agents and some other team would have poached them. At the time of those contracts were were still very much a W.S. contender/favorite and you call resigning who was at the time the best pitcher and hitter in baseball to extensions stupid moves....

I realize you are kind of dumb and this has been explained before, but sports contracts are often not about paying for what you will get, but what you have already got. How many young players play at a multi million level yet make relatively nothing compared to others? The contract negotiation is about paying the player based on past performance, not saying well I'm tomdalton22 and I know that you are going to regress some after you turn 30 so I won't extend you and instead I'll keep payroll low while ticket prices are high and so is TV revenue and somehow call myself a smart GM while not having any players who will put people in the seats.

like the Angels poached Pujols?

As far as paying for what a player has done...you do that in the second contract...not the 3rd. Miggy & JV were already compensated for past performances on their second contracts. The Tigers were stupid for signing JV and Miggy to their 3rd contracts when they did....TWO years before they hit FA and after their BEST seasons.

Also, I never said I would keep payroll low.

 

[tomdalton22]

Superstars get those contracts, unless you're a low payroll floundering team you pay the stars. The pickle that is Detroit is not because of those two contracts it has been the Sanchez deal, the Zimmerman deal, the Upton deal, the 2 years 16m Pelfrey deal (That still cracks me up). You can pay 2 guys, but not 5-6 like Detroit or eventually that catches up..

yes...those deals were terrible. I have gone on record that I blame Mr. I for those stupid deals.

 

[Rebbiv]

The culture once was that no Free Agents would come to Detroit. There was a reason for that. The organization did not take care of it's own and the "overpaid" for other team's players. Signing Cabrera and Verlander to their extensions opened the door for Free Agents to give Detroit serious consideration.

Monday Morning Quarterbacking is so easy. I have no problem with Verlander's or Cabrera's contracts. I do and did have a problem with Victor's. I didn't have a problem with Zimmerman's, but I did with Upton's, Pelfrey's and Rodiguez. Tom hates all long term contracts. I hate the ones that do not show value based on past performance.

FYI...Pujols had more "value" remaining as a Cardinal. I can cite dozens of bad contracts and even backup why they were made based on historical performance. There is nothing suggesting Verlander's or Cabrera's contracts (except in duration) were bad based on their historical performance. 1-year snapshots are extremely poor barometers.

 

[tomdalton22]

The culture once was that no Free Agents would come to Detroit. There was a reason for that. The organization did not take care of it's own and the "overpaid" for other team's players. Signing Cabrera and Verlander to their extensions opened the door for Free Agents to give Detroit serious consideration.

Monday Morning Quarterbacking is so easy. I have no problem with Verlander's or Cabrera's contracts. I do and did have a problem with Victor's. I didn't have a problem with Zimmerman's, but I did with Upton's, Pelfrey's and Rodiguez. Tom hates all long term contracts. I hate the ones that do not show value based on past performance.

FYI...Pujols had more "value" remaining as a Cardinal. I can cite dozens of bad contracts and even backup why they were made based on historical performance. There is nothing suggesting Verlander's or Cabrera's contracts (except in duration) were bad based on their historical performance. 1-year snapshots are extremely poor barometers.

I didn't know that FA didn't want to come to Detroit because the team had a reputation for not taking care of it's players. Who are these players that the Tigers "didn't take care of"? I thought it FA didn't come to Detroit because the team sucked (main reason), the stadium was a dump and the city was a shit hole.

 

[biggunsbob]

Juan Gonzalez in 2000. Heck who else did we sign that was suppose to be good between 1995 to when Purge signed in 2004. I don't Rememeber many big names even looking at us when Detroit sucked for those 10ish plus years. I hope Verlander and Miggy are tigers for life but we need to get younger and faster somehow. Freaking bullpen. if we only knew how to build a bullpen we might have a few titles sadly :/

 

[Mitchrapp]

Pujols will soon get to 3000 hits, in LA. I don't want to see Miggy get it elsewhere.. And JV, it'd be nice to see a drafted Tiger stay here for the duration. The Tigers can afford both easily enough..

Side question: Kinsler has a team option for next year. Do the Tigers keep him?

 

[deathroh]

Take this with the appropriate number of grains of salt, but I have a friend of a friend that currently plays for a Tigers minor league team, and he was supposedly told by his manager to run away from the organization - that it's a complete mess.

Neither my friend, nor the player are BS'ers, so I don't have reason to disbelieve it outright, but that does seem like a hell of a thing for a manager to say about his employers. The player is more of a career minor leaguer than an actual prospect, so hopefully he's not running off anyone important. But still, it might be even worse than we think..