Verlander versus Morris

[Rebbiv]

Comparison of 8 years of data.

Morris 1981-1988

Verlander 2006-2013

Morris 272 GS 140 W 90 L 111 CG 18 SHO 7.44 IP/GS 3.50 ERA 1.23 WHIP

Verlander 264 GS 137 W 75 L 20 CG 6 SHO 6.67 IP/GS 3.37 ERA 1.17 WHIP

 

[Rebbiv]

Team Record when Starting

Morris 165-107 .607 WPCT

Verlander 158-106 .598 WPCT


Record when team scores 5 runs or more

Morris 96-9 (Team is 114-18 .864 WPCT)

Verlander 101-11 (Team is 116-17 .872 WPCT)


Record when team does not score at least 5 runs

Morris 44-81 (Team is 51-89 .364 WPCT)

Verlander 36-64 (Team is 42-89 .321 WPCT)

 

[Mitchrapp]

Umm?

 

[Rebbiv]

Umm?

Would you say Verlander is on his way to being a HoFer? If so, there are striking similarities. However, Morris has Verlander beat in Complete Games and Shutouts.

 

[kalinecountry]

4 and 5 man rotations?

What is that Stat to neutralize different eras?

ERA+ ERA-

Home away splits?

 

[Rebbiv]

4 and 5 man rotations?

What is that Stat to neutralize different eras?

ERA+ ERA-

Home away splits?

Actually, rotations are about the same.

From 1981-1988 (8 years), Morris was first in Wins (by 24 over Valenzuela), Games Started (by 6 over Stieb), Complete Games (by 13 over Valenzuela) and Innings Pitched (by 97 over Valenzuela). There are 94x MLB Starters with at least 800 IP during this time frame.

From 2006-2013 (8 years), Verlander was first in Wins (by 1 over Sabathia). He was second in Games Started (by 1 under Arroyo) and Innings Pitched (by 42 under Sabathia). He was 6th in Complete Games (by 27 under Halladay). There are 98x MLB Starters with at least 800 IP during this time frame.

RA9-WAR

Morris 2nd behind Stieb

Verlander 2nd behind Halladay

Now as far as away splits, those are less sortable. I could do them manually, but what you most likely will see is the stats heavily favored towards Morris.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Would you say Verlander is on his way to being a HoFer? If so, there are striking similarities. However, Morris has Verlander beat in Complete Games and Shutouts.

I saw him as a HOF if he consistently did 2011-2012 again and again but as of now, he needs to do a lot more to even get close..

 

[Sbee]

it's hard to compare CG/SHO given the era's, pitch counts and specialty relievers have changed the way pitchers are used. the difference hurts verlander for CG/SHO but it hurts Morris for ERA i'd assume. Sparky wanted to make him a 9 inning pitcher more often than not and he gave up more runs due to that

 

[Rebbiv]

it's hard to compare CG/SHO given the era's, pitch counts and specialty relievers have changed the way pitchers are used. the difference hurts verlander for CG/SHO but it hurts Morris for ERA i'd assume. Sparky wanted to make him a 9 inning pitcher more often than not and he gave up more runs due to that

That is exactly right. If Morris was pitching today, I assure you his ERA, WHIP, etc, etc would be lower. But so would his Complete Games and Shutouts.

Morris was the leading pitcher in his era for not only wins, but complete games and shutouts. Verlander is just wins and nothing else. Yet, most would say Verlander has been the best pitcher in baseball over the last 8 years.

 

[jdeb]

Great thread. Very interesting. Morris was a stud for the most part as is Verlander. I think the way Morris treated the media pretty much killed his chances in the hall or at least up to this point. I'll never forget that great game he pitched in the WS when with the Twins. He was special that night.

Could you imagine either one of those guys pitching off the old high mound and the strike zone by the book era?

What about park factors? That short right field porch in Tiger Stadium burned Morris many a day.

I nominate rebbiv for the bill james HOF

 

[hellifino]

Verlander might have had better stuff, but give me the heart of A Bulldog like Morris.

 

[Rebbiv]

Through age 30

Morris 245 GS 120 W 1777.0 IP 3.61 ERA .237 OPP BAVG 1.26 WHIP

Verlander 266 GS 137 W 1772.0 IP 3.41 ERA .235 OPP BAVG 1.19 WHIP


Now, some cite Dave Stieb as a reason why Morris would never go into the HoF. Stieb effectively pitched from 1979-1990. So let's look at those years:

Wins
1. Morris 194
2. Welch 167
3. Stieb 166
4. N. Ryan 151
t5. Blyleven 143
t5. C. Hough 143

Games Started
1. Morris 395
2. Stieb 382
3. N. Ryan 378
4. Welch 358
5. Tannana 350

Innings Pitched
1. Morris 2891.0 IP (7.32 IP/GS)
2. Stieb 2648.0 IP (6.93 IP/GS)
3. N. Ryan 2520.6 IP (6.67 IP/GS)
4. Blyleven 2445.0 IP (7.03 IP/GS)
5. Welch 2380.3 IP (6.65 IP/GS)

Complete Games
1. Morris 153
2. Valenzuela 107
3. Stieb 101
4. Blyleven 100
5. Hough 98

Shutouts
1. Stieb 30
2. Valenzuela 29
t3. Morris 24
t3. Welch 24
5. N. Ryan 22

Strikeouts
1. Ryan 2622
2. Morris 1904
3. Valenzuela 1742
4. Blyleven 1718
5. Welch 1624
6. Stieb 1546

 

[tigerfan2272]

Yeah Verlander doesn't have the heart of a pitbull and could careless what he is doing out there... Do you have eyes?

 

[hellifino]

Yeah Verlander doesn't have the heart of a pitbull and could careless what he is doing out there... Do you have eyes?

evidently you don't know JACK!

 

[Thundercats]

I have a hard time saying JV has been the best over 8 years. The past 3, maybe. The other 5 years of contention, Roy Halladay was easily the best in the game.. and even Felix, Lincecum, and a couple others were better than JV from 2006-2011.

 

[gotime909]

Curious to why you chose to pick an 8 year block from one guy that started in his 4th year in the league at 26 years old and compared it to an 8 year block from a guy starting with his rookie year at 23. Kinda cherry picking, no? Why not compare what they did at similar points in their careers, like first 8 years of both careers or what they did from ages 26-30? But that wouldn't support your argument, so I get it.

 

[Thumb]

Here we go....

Must have been a sale on troll chow.

 

[Rebbiv]

Through age 30

Morris 245 GS 120 W 1777.0 IP 3.61 ERA .237 OPP BAVG 1.26 WHIP

Verlander 266 GS 137 W 1772.0 IP 3.41 ERA .235 OPP BAVG 1.19 WHIP

Through age 30 AWAY

Morris 65.0 RC/650 .241 BAVG .304 OBP .366 SLG .670 OPS 1.24 WHIP 3.51 ERA

Verlander 67.8 RC/650 .242 BAVG .306 OBP .371 SLG .677 OPS 1.23 WHIP 3.72 ERA

 

[Rebbiv]

Age 24-30

Verlander 234 GS 120 W 1574.6 IP 6.73 IP/GS 3.35 ERA 1.17 WHIP

Morris 232 GS 119 W 1703.0 IP 7.34 IP/GS 3.57 ERA 1.25 WHIP

 

[UMRules06]

Age 24-30

Verlander 234 GS 120 W 1574.6 IP 6.73 IP/GS 3.35 ERA 1.17 WHIP

Morris 232 GS 119 W 1703.0 IP 7.34 IP/GS 3.57 ERA 1.25 WHIP

It is rather interesting how close they are besides the innings pitched per start. Obviously that has more to do with the era and manager philosophies of the different times. Unfortunately I didn't start watching the Tigers until about 1996 or so (bad year to start!), so I didn't get to watch Morris pitch here all that much.

I don't think it's accurate to say that Verlander was discussed as being the best, or one of the best, pitchers in MLB until his 2011 year though. Prior to that you had guys like Sabathia, Lee, Lincecum, Halladay, Hernandez, Carpenter, J. Santana, J. Beckett. In that 2006-2009 period, probably most if not all of those guys were thought of more highly than JV. That's just my opinion I suppose from what I remember. Remember Verlander had a very bad 2008 year that took him a couple years to bounce back from perception wise.