Climate Change

[TheVictors]

So are "we" going to pay for the last 20yrs of denying that climate change, aka "global warming" has been taking place? FoxNews and so many other right media machines cranking out denial and for what..? I guess for money?! Because if we acknowledged the truth it would be an uncomfortable conversation and cost money to do things right.

Flooding coast lines, drought and famine and escalating violence over scarcity of resources ...that was a fucking HS debate topic in the '90's and projections of "worst case scenario" 20yrs ago now are not worst case but simply ...the case.

I would link some article I googled but do I really have to?

 

[Gulo Blue]

Unless you're talking about revolutions in multiple nations, it's doesn't seem to matter much what 99% of us think.

Have you heard about the gigantic liquid fuel plants being built in China? They're moving the smog from the cities to the countryside by building massive plants that burn dirty fuels to produce cleaner burning fuels that can be used closer to cities. The net result is twice as much pollution per units of useful power.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Don't get me wrong, I think this is of the highest priority. But progress will come when someone figures out a way to get rich on a new energy technology. That the new technology is clean has to be a byproduct, not the central business case.

 

[Michchamp]

So are "we" going to pay for the last 20yrs of denying that climate change, aka "global warming" has been taking place? FoxNews and so many other right media machines cranking out denial and for what..? I guess for money?! Because if we acknowledged the truth it would be an uncomfortable conversation and cost money to do things right.

Flooding coast lines, drought and famine and escalating violence over scarcity of resources ...that was a fucking HS debate topic in the '90's and projections of "worst case scenario" 20yrs ago now are not worst case but simply ...the case.

I would link some article I googled but do I really have to?

Nope!

I've read a few of the projections over the last couple months, and it's pretty horrifying... even more so because I have a kid now.

the oil/fossil fuels lobby is probably the most powerful force on earth, and they are not nice people. making the accommodations necessary to curb the increase in temperatures would seriously crimp their profits... and they simply won't let that happen.

I read this book late last year... many of the societies that collapsed did so because the elites that governed them kept pushing their own personal interests until the very end (Mayas, Anasazi, Easter Island, Vikings on Greenland). as things ended, it just meant they had the "privilege" of being the last ones to starve.

deforestation (Easter Island, and parts of Greenland were completely deforested) was a common thread throughout the collapses as well, and the question the author said he was often asked was "what the hell was the guy who cut down the last tree thinking?" The answer is usually that the change is gradual enough that this guy didn't see how the forest had decreased over time. He also would've had no idea it was the last tree because people only see what's in front of them. he would've assumed there were more trees somewhere else on the island or region.

all these factors are present in the current world, and the truly insane thing is that they are occurring on a planet-wide level; prior collapses were local, and were accommodated somewhat because people could simply move away, or receive outside aid. But there really are few areas to go as things spiral out of control.

Assuming enough records of our modern industrial society survive, and future generations are intelligent enough to make sense of what happened, they'll probably wonder how we could've allowed the fossil fuel industry to completely dictate so much of our daily lives... from our transportation system, to how we spend public money to subsidize the industry... and why the industry would fail to recognize its own folly and change when things started to become apparent, instead of spending more of their own money to lobby to ensure they could continue doing business as usual until the end.

cheers...

buying an island in a lake somewhere in Saskatchewan, and having the muscle to keep other people off it is probably going to be a winning strategy.

 

[Michchamp]

Don't get me wrong, I think this is of the highest priority. But progress will come when someone figures out a way to get rich on a new energy technology. That the new technology is clean has to be a byproduct, not the central business case.

Ideally, our society would be sensible enough to adopt it. but I have no hope that would happen. the fossil fuels industry would kill it.

they'd buy up the patents and bury them, or they'd lobby to ensure there are regulatory barriers to hamper it as long as possible. Fox News would run "stories" of how it kills babies, and preachers would hammer the idea that it was the work of satan into yokels' skulls.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Ideally, our society would be sensible enough to adopt it. but I have no hope that would happen. the fossil fuels industry would kill it.

they'd buy up the patents and bury them, or they'd lobby to ensure there are regulatory barriers to hamper it as long as possible. Fox News would run "stories" of how it kills babies, and preachers would hammer the idea that it was the work of satan into yokels' skulls.

Larry Page recently said he'd rather give all his money to Elon Musk than to charity. Bill Gates has been a big supporter of thorium reactor research. We do have a side to cheer for in this fight.

 

[Thumb]

I saw a chart that showed the estimate for the first Thorium Reactor being about 2030.

 

[Thumb]

sorry, didn't realize that would be so huge.

 

[Sbee]

Only in this country do we have a political party that argues against the science, other countries argue about policy changes but never the facts, those aren't debatable there.

I trust NASA as far as climate change,

http://climate.nasa.gov/

the big issue that i see is the loss of ice cover in Greenland, we'll continue to se rising sea levels and a majority of coastal cities will have to build retaining walls or drown.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Cool chart...but anyone putting a date on utility fog is being at least a little optimistic.

 

[TheVictors]

Yeah MC, it's part having a kid and probably part midlife crisis and I realize until China and other 3rd world nations curb emissions, all the Prius driving in the world won't matter.

I just hate the fact that no that long ago, smarmy smug "scientists" would sit on Bill O and decry reality. That some could claim Al Gore made up climate change in order to profit from it.... And sadly yes, Sbee ...this nation of smarter than the rest of the world people are incredibly stupid on this topic.

 

[Gulo Blue]

15 new coal plants equal to 10% of the US's total usage. I read somewhere else that the biggest one is the size of LA.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/07/china-coal-idUSL3N0K90H720140107

 

[Michchamp]

Only in this country do we have a political party that argues against the science, other countries argue about policy changes but never the facts, those aren't debatable there.

I trust NASA as far as climate change,

http://climate.nasa.gov/

the big issue that i see is the loss of ice cover in Greenland, we'll continue to se rising sea levels and a majority of coastal cities will have to build retaining walls or drown.

NASA isn't the only government entity that has come out in favor of climate change. the Navy has been looking into alternatively-powered ships

15 new coal plants equal to 10% of the US's total usage. I read somewhere else that the biggest one is the size of LA.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/07/china-coal-idUSL3N0K90H720140107

that's another problem... because you have various competitive nations/entities on earth that can prosper by cheating the system and burning more fossil fuel, there are strong incentives to cheat and keep burning fossil fuels.

the UN would have to promulgate standards and enforce them... ironically, it's located in NYC, which will be underwater in a few decades.

 

[Michchamp]

sorry, didn't realize that would be so huge.

wow... the future is durrrr...

 

[Gulo Blue]

NASA isn't the only government entity that has come out in favor of climate change.

What?! NASA is in favor of it?! Screw them! I am now all for defunding NASA. Assholes.

 

[Michchamp]

What?! NASA is in favor of it?! Screw them! I am now all for defunding NASA. Assholes.

huh?

Oh... ha ha ha. Look at that. The way I wrote that sentence made it sound like NASA is advocating we should change the climate. Jeez. Silly me. What I meant to say is that NASA has accepted that climate change is occurring.

 

[Michchamp]

Yeah MC, it's part having a kid and probably part midlife crisis and I realize until China and other 3rd world nations curb emissions, all the Prius driving in the world won't matter.

I just hate the fact that no that long ago, smarmy smug "scientists" would sit on Bill O and decry reality. That some could claim Al Gore made up climate change in order to profit from it.... And sadly yes, Sbee ...this nation of smarter than the rest of the world people are incredibly stupid on this topic.

I know. when I hear people say that stuff... "Al Gore is only in it to make money" or "these scientists are biased" I think... "Well the climate change deniers are all funded by the fossil fuels industry; how come you don't consider that a credibility problem?"

but then I remember that a lot of people who question this are the typical white Republican guys you know... they see this being discussed by a bunch of intellectual liberals and instinctively want to attack, but don't really understand it too deeply otherwise. Depending on where they fall on the intellectual spectrum they'll resort to junk pseudo-scientific arguments (my dad: "CO2 in teh atmosphere actually reflects more sunlight, so the net effect is zero"), to trying to sound "above" it all by claiming everyone is just in it for the money ("these liberals they're just lookin' to make a buck too") to finally just picking up a stick and attempting to hit you with it ("liberals BAD. me hit with stick. sun BRIGHT. me hot... me lay down to sleep.")

other tropes:
- "liberals just want to ruin business." That sounds profitable. I can see a massive conspiracy engaging in that just for the fun of it.
- "liberals will have control over our society if they can regulate carbon emissions." Sounds nefarious. What will they do with this control? "march us off to labor camps and gay marry us."

 

[tinselwolverine]

huh?

Oh... ha ha ha. Look at that. The way I wrote that sentence made it sound like NASA is advocating we should change the climate. Jeez. Silly me. What I meant to say is that NASA has accepted that climate change is occurring.

I thought you were making an April Fools Day funny.

 

[mhughes0021]

Climate changed on its own prior to all the carbon in the atmosphere. Take the Sahara desert for example....it used to be a Sea lol. Throw in all the carbon we fed into our atmosphere and the results are an unstable climate. I love the conservatives that point at record lows in temperature like the Midwest has had this winter and say "see its not getting warmer." The point is its getting crazier, more unstable and more likely that most of our coastal cities will be under water in the near future. Tornadoes being bigger, hurricanes being stronger due to elevated water temps....those are the minor things we will have to deal with. All we have to do is look to our neighbors to see the potential disastrous results...our electromagnetic field goes away and we turn into mars and roast away as the sun bar b ques all of us. Or the greenhouse effect gets so bad we turn into venus

 

[tinselwolverine]

Climate changed on its own prior to all the carbon in the atmosphere. Take the Sahara desert for example....it used to be a Sea lol.

This little old Jewish guy (it's gotta be a Jewish guy for it to work) wanders into this lumber camp looking for a job." The forman says to him, "I think you might be a little small and frail for the job,' and the little old guy answers "whaddya talkin' about? I'm Morty Steinberg, de greatest lumberman who ever lived."

"What kind of experience do you have in this kind of work."

"I cleared the Sahara Forest single handedly!"

"The Sahara Forest? I've never heard of that. I've heard of the Sahara Desert."

"Well, yeah - it is NOW!"

(This was actually on a video of Jewish jokes that was posted on this board sometime ago, maybe Diggler's junk or Semi Adult).