Did we learn the lessons yet?

[zyxt9]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/0...iss-over-ukraine-sanctions/?intcmp=latestnews

Sorry for using a Fox link, didn't see one on CNN.

Anyway, so because the US is supporting Ukraine and putting sanctions on Russia, they are going to restrict the US from accessing the International Space Station. Further restrictions include the use of Russian rocket engines.

So, have we learned the following yet?

1. NEVER surrender so much control of space related programs.
2. ALWAYS make sure there is a viable backup that is solely controlled and contained within the US.

I am not suggesting we do not partner with other nations in the humanitarian interest of furthering relationships with other nations in terms of space. However, we cannot afford to have other nations threaten our ability to do what our scientists need to do in space in order to advance countless experiments and exploration.

I want to say we should never trust Russia as well; however, I still have hope that one day they will be a better nation...I just think they are so inbred by now that it is a very faint hope. Putin also has too many years left to live to even provide so much as a shimmer...but maybe he will die sooner than I am thinking.

 

[Monster]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/0...iss-over-ukraine-sanctions/?intcmp=latestnews

Sorry for using a Fox link, didn't see one on CNN.

Anyway, so because the US is supporting Ukraine and putting sanctions on Russia, they are going to restrict the US from accessing the International Space Station. Further restrictions include the use of Russian rocket engines.

So, have we learned the following yet?

1. NEVER surrender so much control of space related programs.
2. ALWAYS make sure there is a viable backup that is solely controlled and contained within the US.

I am not suggesting we do not partner with other nations in the humanitarian interest of furthering relationships with other nations in terms of space. However, we cannot afford to have other nations threaten our ability to do what our scientists need to do in space in order to advance countless experiments and exploration.

I want to say we should never trust Russia as well; however, I still have hope that one day they will be a better nation...I just think they are so inbred by now that it is a very faint hope. Putin also has too many years left to live to even provide so much as a shimmer...but maybe he will die sooner than I am thinking.

One thing that pisses me off about Obama is he's a pussy when it comes to this stuff. He's done nothing to help diffuse this situation or lay down a big enough hammer to put any kind of fear into Putin.

The indecision is infuriating. Sanctions...woo hoo.

 

[Thumb]

One thing that pisses me off about Obama is he's a pussy when it comes to this stuff. He's done nothing to help diffuse this situation or lay down a big enough hammer to put any kind of fear into Putin.

The indecision is infuriating. Sanctions...woo hoo.

Right.

What we really need here is a G.W Bush-style move that will get us into a costly and long term war.

 

[Thumb]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/0...iss-over-ukraine-sanctions/?intcmp=latestnews

Sorry for using a Fox link, didn't see one on CNN.

Anyway, so because the US is supporting Ukraine and putting sanctions on Russia, they are going to restrict the US from accessing the International Space Station. Further restrictions include the use of Russian rocket engines.

So, have we learned the following yet?

1. NEVER surrender so much control of space related programs.
2. ALWAYS make sure there is a viable backup that is solely controlled and contained within the US.

I am not suggesting we do not partner with other nations in the humanitarian interest of furthering relationships with other nations in terms of space. However, we cannot afford to have other nations threaten our ability to do what our scientists need to do in space in order to advance countless experiments and exploration.

I want to say we should never trust Russia as well; however, I still have hope that one day they will be a better nation...I just think they are so inbred by now that it is a very faint hope. Putin also has too many years left to live to even provide so much as a shimmer...but maybe he will die sooner than I am thinking.

First off, the bolded part is FALSE. Read what you linked. They are not saying we cant use them to go to the space station, just that we have to guarantee we wont use them for launching military satellites.

The other part is just posturing, because none of it will matter until 2020, and by then either it will all have been resolved, or we'll all be ashes.

 

[Monster]

Right.

What we really need here is a G.W Bush-style move that will get us into a costly and long term war.

Bush started wars that were never worth fighting. This could actually be a war that would be worth fighting. I'm not saying that is what should be done, but I am saying that Obama hasn't done anything to help either way. He's not going to talk Putin down and sanctions aren't going to do shit. A war may not be necessary, but the way he's handling the situation now is making it worse.

Don't get me wrong, I'm an Obama supporter (mostly) but I think he's weak when it comes to these situations. I don't know exactly what should be done, but what is happening now is just giving putin a free pass.

 

[Thumb]

What is it you think Obama (or any head of state) can say or do? Putin does not give a shit what anyone says, including Merkel who could probably crush his country easier than Hitler did.

Turkey is threatening to cut off access to the Mediterranean, and outside of that and sanctions by the US and EU there is not really much else we can do without risking an armed conflict.

 

[Michchamp]

yeah, we should've started a nuclear war with Russia!

Obama is such a pussy.

 

[Spartanmack]

So fighting Al Qaida and the Taliban in Afghanistan - killing the people who murdered over 3k civilians on American soil on 9/11 was a war not worth fighting but facing down Russia and potentially releasing a nuclear holocaust that could wipe out the entire planet because of a civil war in the Ukraine that has harmed ZERO Americans is a worthwhile endeavor. Interesting.

 

[Gulo Blue]

So, have we learned the following yet?

1. NEVER surrender so much control of space related programs.
2. ALWAYS make sure there is a viable backup that is solely controlled and contained within the US.

How about this?

http://www.space.com/20043-dragon-capsule-space-station-docking.html

An unmanned commercial space capsule packed with precious cargo successfully linked up with the International Space Station early Sunday (March 3), making a flawless orbital delivery after overcoming a thruster glitch that delayed its arrival by a day.

SpaceX can't take people yet, but I think it's a safe bet they're working on it.

Regarding the more recent posts and Ukraine, I think aggressive international sanctions are the way to go, but we do have real motivation to keep Ukraine in one piece. Ukraine agreed to not pursue nuclear weapons on the condition that the US, Russia, and the UK would respect Ukrainian independence and solidarity along with several other things. Russia is in clear violation in my opinion. We have to keep up our end of the bargain so that we have credibility when negotiating non-proliferation agreements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

Ukraine had 1,800 nuclear weapons at the time of the agreement.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304017604579447433598288634

 

[Spartanmack]

What is it you think Obama (or any head of state) can say or do? Putin does not give a shit what anyone says, including Merkel who could probably crush his country easier than Hitler did.

Turkey is threatening to cut off access to the Mediterranean, and outside of that and sanctions by the US and EU there is not really much else we can do without risking an armed conflict.

Hitler crushed Russia? >80% of Germany's WWII casualties were on the eastern front and although Stalin's tactics were barbaric and showed depraved indifference to his own military and civilians, the Soviets did more to crush Hitler than the US and Britain combined - they even beat the Allies to Berlin. And by the way, Russia with the 2nd most powerful military in the world today (for now), would clown stomp Germany militarily. They have 50% bigger annual budget and 10x the number of active military personnel, 5x total military aircraft and a 3.3x bigger navy.

 

[Sbee]

Bush started wars that were never worth fighting. This could actually be a war that would be worth fighting. I'm not saying that is what should be done, but I am saying that Obama hasn't done anything to help either way. He's not going to talk Putin down and sanctions aren't going to do shit. A war may not be necessary, but the way he's handling the situation now is making it worse.

Don't get me wrong, I'm an Obama supporter (mostly) but I think he's weak when it comes to these situations. I don't know exactly what should be done, but what is happening now is just giving putin a free pass.

Bush started one war that was never worth fighting, the other was necessary. losing 4000 americans and having 100k Iraqi's die based on faulty intelligence or a lie is reprehensible. Afghanistan is a different story altogether, though we should't be as active there as we are now. Obama somehow gets a pass for this, I guess wars are only a problem when a republican is in office.

we can't do anything more than sanctions because we would need to nuke russia over the Ukraine? What Putin did doesn't even come close to what we did in Iraq.

 

[Gulo Blue]

They have 50% bigger annual budget and 10x the number of active military personnel, 5x total military aircraft and a 3.3x bigger navy.

...and 8,500 nuclear weapons.

 

[Michchamp]

I think it's been mentioned here before that when Putin invaded South Ossetia in 2008, Bush didn't do shit... and we had been actively supplying Georgia w weapons before that. Fox News left that inconvenient fact out of their criticism of Obama over this a few weeks back.

And forth the record, I think staying out of Georgia was the right call. Not criticizing Bush for that as much as the chicken hawks who like to shake their tiny fists and call for war every time some foreign event doesn't go exactly the way they think it should.

 

[Spartanmack]

...and 8,500 nuclear weapons.

right - 8,500 nuclear weapons to 0 for Germany.

 

[Michchamp]

I think we've done all the right things so far in Ukraine, and I don't agree with some of the criticism (a lot of it from the left) that the US is in the wrong in Ukraine, or should completely stay out of it or even condone the shit Putin has done.

 

[Monster]

Nuclear war...yes. that's exactly what i said. I'll guarantee you one thing. Putin does not wan war. Why else do you think he's lied over and over again about russian troops in ukraine. If he takes Ukraine...I'd say he'd be more likely to actually start the war. If there was a serious threat that the U.S. and allies would retaliate, Putin would never have invaded. Instead, he's going to absorb ukraine, get stronger, and then he won't give a shit about war. I'm not calling for us to bomb moscow. The threat should be there.

And no...the Afghan war was not necessary. Honestly, I think it may be worse than before. If anything, we should have been done with that country within a year or two. Iraq was just stupid.

 

[Michchamp]

Nuclear war...yes. that's exactly what i said. I'll guarantee you one thing. Putin does not wan war. Why else do you think he's lied over and over again about russian troops in ukraine. If he takes Ukraine...I'd say he'd be more likely to actually start the war. If there was a serious threat that the U.S. and allies would retaliate, Putin would never have invaded. Instead, he's going to absorb ukraine, get stronger, and then he won't give a shit about war. I'm not calling for us to bomb moscow. The threat should be there.

And no...the Afghan war was not necessary. Honestly, I think it may be worse than before. If anything, we should have been done with that country within a year or two. Iraq was just stupid.

That's nuts. I don't think we were in any position to threaten force like that. It looks like Europe would've been pissed at us for that too, since we'd be starting a war on their eastern border in a country where we had no national interests. In this case we would've come off as nuts... Threatening to attack Russia - which for all practical purposes means nuclear war - over a squabble between Ukraine and Russia? Get real.

We made the right decisions so far. Maybe help arm the Ukrainians, but don't get involved . It's Ukraine's fight not ours.

Give Russia enough rope to hang themselves, and let them look like the bad guys.

 

[Thumb]

Hitler crushed Russia? >80% of Germany's WWII casualties were on the eastern front and although Stalin's tactics were barbaric and showed depraved indifference to his own military and civilians, the Soviets did more to crush Hitler than the US and Britain combined - they even beat the Allies to Berlin. And by the way, Russia with the 2nd most powerful military in the world today (for now), would clown stomp Germany militarily. They have 50% bigger annual budget and 10x the number of active military personnel, 5x total military aircraft and a 3.3x bigger navy.

Hitler decimated several Russian cities and that was with a 3rd of his military. Remember he was fighting a 3 front war. The Russian winter was all that stopped the German advance, giving the Russians time to regroup and get supplies from the US. The Russians beating us to Berlin was a concession because of the losses suffered in the USSR, it's not like it was a race. Now nuclear warheads notwithstanding, Germany's army is better equipped, and likely better trained, plus they are not spread out over parts of 2 continents. I can;t find the link, but I remember reading an article that said because of what is stationed where if a convention war broke out between Germany and Russia today, the Germans would take Moscow within 6 days or something.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I know the popular take on Iraq is that Bush wanted a war and lied to get it, but there was a little more to it than that. People either forget or weren't aware of the internal politics that led Saddam to do crazy shit. The Sunni minority ruled over the Shi'ite population through oppression. He acted like he was pursuing weapons and kicked out inspectors because he needed people in Iraq and neighboring countries to believe he had them and be afraid.

To some degree I fear we have a similar thing with Putin. He's doing what he has to do to stay popular in Russia. Sadly, that means giving the middle finger to everyone else.

(As an aside,while it turns out Saddam's WMD program was a farce, there still hasn't been any real proof that we actually knew it was all a farce. There was some evidence that some of it was a farce and Iraqi weapons engineers lying about their progress; at least some of that was known. But there were plenty of smoking guns intentionally created by Saddam, and I don't know for sure what the Bush admin's real take on it was. I could believe that the Bush administration knew Iraq didn't have a real WMD program, but that hasn't actually been proven. I'd love it if our reporters would keep digging into things like who created the fake yellowcake documents to find evidence of what was known by who.)

 

[Spartanmack]

Hitler decimated several Russian cities and that was with a 3rd of his military. Remember he was fighting a 3 front war. The Russian winter was all that stopped the German advance, giving the Russians time to regroup and get supplies from the US. The Russians beating us to Berlin was a concession because of the losses suffered in the USSR, it's not like it was a race. Now nuclear warheads notwithstanding, Germany's army is better equipped, and likely better trained, plus they are not spread out over parts of 2 continents. I can;t find the link, but I remember reading an article that said because of what is stationed where if a convention war broke out between Germany and Russia today, the Germans would take Moscow within 6 days or something.

Hitler attacked a country ill prepared to defend itself but unlike the French, the Russians were never close to surrender. Hitler stupidly fought a war of attrition with Russia that he was never going to win. North Africa was a drop in the bucket and was over in 1943 and never anywhere near 1/3 of Hitler's troops. Here are Hitler's total German troop counts by year with the % of troops in the east:

1941 - 3.767mm (76%)
1942 - 3.720mm (80%)
1943 - 3.933mm (63%)
1944 - 3.370mm (62%)
1945 - 2.330mm (60%)

In that time period the Soviets killed 4mm Germans soldiers and captured another 3.3mm. Again, 80% of German casualties were in the eastern theater. And if you think it wasn't a race, look at what Russia had to lose if they didn't push as far west as they could before Hitler surrendered - I'm pretty sure Stalin had a sense of urgency.

Where do you get this better trained and better equipped shit? You act as if the Russians are like the Afghani security forces that smoke opium all day, buttfuq each other all night and can't do a jumping jack. They have Germany dramatically out-spent, out-manned, out-gunned and have a superior air force and navy PLUS the fact that the Russians actually have experience fighting a few wars recently. But by far, the best the best part of your argument is you start off by saying "setting aside the fact that Russia can blow up everyone and everything in Germany almost 8,000 times over..." before making these ridiculous claims of Germany military dominance over Russia.