Global Warming

[elrod817]

well, if water rising doesn't say anything about climate change, then why did you bring up your 20 year observation in your thread about climate change?

Never mind the fact that sea levels have risen at all the places he mentioned....

 

[redandguilty]

More evaporation would lead to more precipitation, which would leave the water levels mostly unchanged.

More importantly, he is making another argument, undercutting his own previous argument.

 

[elrod817]

it is a little silly to look at all the scientific groups and organizations that have come out on one side of the issue, and conclude they're wrong, and the "skeptics" (who've often been demonstrated to have taken $$$ from the industries and organizations that stand to lose from curbing emissions) are the unbiased ones here.

What, exactly does the American Physical Society have to gain by falsely claiming global warming exists? Well... besides less air pollution, better planned cities, and a cleaner environment... I mean, is some other industry going to hand them a check? The all-powerful Greenpeace?

This michchamp right here...this is what bothers me the most about the global warming/climate change argument. I feel like it's almost a distraction argument. The real issue, to me, is pollution, but that gets lost in the shuffle. What if global warming doesn't exist? Is it cool to pollute then just because temperatures aren't rising? Of course not, but that's what gets glossed over in all of it.

Really it's the conceit, or maybe ignorance...or maybe both of mankind to think that he can do whatever he choose to the planet with no repercussions. I've always been one to appreciate the this from the Great Law of the Iroquois: ?In every deliberation, we must consider the impact on the seventh generation... even if it requires having skin as thick as the bark of a pine.?

My great x7 grandkids might not give a shit about me, but I sure as hell want them to have a decent place to live...clean air, clean water regardless if the temperature is rising or not by the hand of man.

 

[grandy]

This michchamp right here...this is what bothers me the most about the global warming/climate change argument. I feel like it's almost a distraction argument. The real issue, to me, is pollution, but that gets lost in the shuffle. What if global warming doesn't exist? Is it cool to pollute then just because temperatures aren't rising? Of course not, but that's what gets glossed over in all of it.

Really it's the conceit, or maybe ignorance...or maybe both of mankind to think that he can do whatever he choose to the planet with no repercussions. I've always been one to appreciate the this from the Great Law of the Iroquois: ?In every deliberation, we must consider the impact on the seventh generation... even if it requires having skin as thick as the bark of a pine.?

My great x7 grandkids might not give a shit about me, but I sure as hell want them to have a decent place to live...clean air, clean water regardless if the temperature is rising or not by the hand of man.

This is why I cringe at the thought of an America without environmental regulations.

 

[redandguilty]

My great x7 grandkids might not give a shit about me, but I sure as hell want them to have a decent place to live...clean air, clean water regardless if the temperature is rising or not by the hand of man.

Your great x7 grandkids are going to be just fine. Life might be tough in 30-50 years, but I think it will be great in 100. Life is tough when the population curve is concave down.

 

[elrod817]

Hope you're right red...as long as we don't poison ourselves or blow ourselves up...

 

[redandguilty]

Hope you're right red...as long as we don't poison ourselves or blow ourselves up...

It's getting better all the time. We just have a habit of looking backwards with a "grass-is-greener" mentality. We could destroy ourselves, and our economic situation proves that we aren't smart enough to dodge pitfalls even when we see them coming, but we are heading for a great age.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Rational-...2068/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334064393&sr=8-1

 

[elrod817]

It's getting better all the time. We just have a habit of looking backwards with a "grass-is-greener" mentality. We could destroy ourselves, and our economic situation proves that we aren't smart enough to dodge pitfalls even when we see them coming, but we are heading for a great age.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Rational-...2068/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334064393&sr=8-1

I actually am an eternal optimist despite my comments. Seems like an interesting read, red. I think I'll check it out.

Also how'd you like Pitt?

 

[redandguilty]

I actually am an eternal optimist despite my comments. Seems like an interesting read, red. I think I'll check it out.

Also how'd you like Pitt?

The book has a bit of an Ayn Rand-ish "trade fixes everything" theme running through it and the whole 1st half of the book is an argument that trade is the main thing separating man from animal. But it's an interesting take on those ideas (from someone who's background is genetics-his ideas about self-regulating competition stems from biological analogies, not faith in an invisible hand.)

I know almost nothing about Pitt. I did my entire post doc from home (in NC). I went there for the 1st time 2 weeks ago to collect some data. The start-up I'm with is based on the work of a Pitt prof so right now, her lab is collaborating with the company she's starting. I designed a test device, it was built in her lab by a grad student, then I spent 4 days there getting data from it. I didn't do any sight seeing, just spent 4 days in the lab.

The food there would kill me eventually. I guess they want to try to 1-up the Philly cheesesteak so they stuff it with fries.

 

[Slick]

Ohio Gov. John Kasich (R) acknowledged that climate change is a "problem" last week at a GOP fundraiser.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/11/john-kasich-climate-change_n_1418606.html


dude better becareful the Repubs may kick him outta the club.

 

[Thumb]

Ohio Gov. John Kasich (R) acknowledged that climate change is a "problem" last week at a GOP fundraiser.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/11/john-kasich-climate-change_n_1418606.html


dude better becareful the Repubs may kick him outta the club.

tsmith is sticking needles in a voodoo doll likeness of him as we speak.

 

[Slick]

tsmith is sticking needles in a voodoo doll likeness of him as we speak.

their standard bearer for 2012 ( Mittens ) also admits global warming exists....he just says he doesn't know to what end....typical Mitt waffles on an issue and leaves room for a flip flop.

 

[mhughes0021]

I deny humans cause climate change...the climate oscillates on its own

Climate will change on its own, yes. But does that mean that its not a problem? Sooooo if we come to a point where hurricanes, tornadoes and earthquakes are more commonplace you just sit back and do nothing?...or do you take precautions to reduce the amount of devastation? I think katrina taught us what that type of thinking does to a city/state/nation.

Climate change can also be accelerated by all the shit we put into the air. The greenhouse effect isnt just some fancy name they made up for hairspray in the atmosphere....its an actual scientific term that explains an event that is happening in our atmosphere....every day....whether you like it or not. And it can get much much worse. If you deny humans add to this effect....well then youre nuts.

 

[cheeno]

If you deny humans add to this effect....well then youre nuts.

True. But if you argue the degree of the effect then you are a scientist. In truth we don't know how much of an effect humans have on changing climate. There is a growing consensus that scientist now believe that this effect is at least a global increase of 1C which would effect southern latitudes and low lying areas worldwide. (Al Gore's Waterworld was an increase in 3C+++) In short TSmith its a lot harder to be dis-proven if you take the tack that humans effect climate by less than 1C and thus does not justify economically changing course. I only say that because you are kind of all over the place with your arguments. You can start with the fact that CO2 isn't even a good source of heat retention in the atmosphere.

 

[redandguilty]

Climate is chaotic. That's why we need to be concerned with our ability to make small changes to the system (or any other source of small changes to the system). Here's a wikipedia picture of a Lorentz system, a common example of a chaotic system. The differential equations are very simple. It takes about a dozen lines of computer code to create a plot like this (and most of that is plotting, the math is only 3 lines).

The thing to notice from this picture is that you can be in a loop, going over roughly the same behavior over and over, and then suddenly the system will take off and go somewhere else for no apparent reason. In this Lorenz system, you can see there are two loops this thing hops back and forth between, but it doesn't hop from one side to the other when it gets close to the center of the loop or when it's near the edge. The jump can happen from positions in between loops that don't trigger jumps.

Our climate is a far more complicated chaotic system and it does make (relatively) sudden jumps. Personally, I think studying this system, trying to characterize it, trying to figure out how we do affect it and how we could affect it is a high priority and I don't understand how an informed person could feel otherwise.

 

[tsmith7559]

tsmith is sticking needles in a voodoo doll likeness of him as we speak.

trying to conserve, etc...is a far cry from cap and trade....and Kasich or Romney isnt for any of that nonsense