Izzo

[MSUMatt28]

Big Ten records during the past 6 years
MSU UM
2018 16-2 13-5
2017 10-8 10-8
2016 13-5 10-8
2015 12-6 8-10
2014 12-6 15-3
2013 13-5 12-6
Totals 76-32 68-40


Regular season titles MSU 1, UM 1
BTT titles MSU 2, UM 2
Final Fours MSU 1, UM 2
Sweet 16's MSU 3, UM 4

MSU has finished higher in the Big Ten standings 4 times during that time. 1 time UM finished higher, 1 time they tied. Big Ten tournament performance is basically a wash.

MSU has been better in the regular season by a noticeable margin. UM has had slightly more success in the NCAAs.

 

[Spartanmack]

You're fucking delusional if you don't think Michigan has been the better basketball program the last 6 seasons. Izzo won a a title 20 years ago and State fans act like he is John Wooden reincarnated.

this is cute. see MSUMatt's post where he provides the data that proves you don't know what you're talking about. And who said anything about the last 6 years? Seems a bit arbitrary, but still, you picked that time frame and Matt checked the tape - the data doesn't seem to support your emphatic conclusion.

You're right about one thing though, it has been 20 years since Izzo won a title but why is that the benchmark? Seems odd to have that as your standard for who the better program is considering Beilein has never won one. You're simply not being fair. And you're also being pretty stupid.

So do I have this right, you think uofm is the better program the last 6 years despite the fact we have the better record, more conference titles, just as many BTT titles, and in that timeframe only uofm has had a losing season and been a game above .500 twice. Also, during your 6 year window, we're 6-5 head-to-head against uofm. You might be able to make the case that uofm's slightly better NCAA tourney results tip the scale in their favor, but that's not at all definitive, it's at best a subjective argument - kind of reeks of bias if you ask me.

All in all, it seems a bit of a stretch to say someone is "fucking delusional" for thinking MSU is the better program the last 6 years.

Edit: you obviously haven't read any of the game threads or threads about Izzo on this board if you think MSU fans act like Izzo is John Wooden reincarnated.

Now...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSGkBWYDmrM

 

[boogerlovejoy]

You're fucking delusional if you don't think Michigan has been the better basketball program the last 6 seasons. Izzo won a a title 20 years ago and State fans act like he is John Wooden reincarnated.

Harbaugh's never won dick and U of M fans act like he's Jesus.

 

[Mawilli]

Harbaugh's never won dick and U of M fans act like he's Jesus.

I certainly don't. I actually called out Michigan fans during football season about still living in the past when state and osu have owned michigan for a decade plus. I guess delusional might have been the wrong word. But even spartan slappy Valenti admits that MI basketball has surpassed MSU. Beilein is taking 2 and 3 star kids to final fours. No one does more with less than him. He would have 2 nat'l titles in the last 10 years if he had the stacked teams that state has had over the years.

 

[tomdalton22]

I certainly don't. I actually called out Michigan fans during football season about still living in the past when state and osu have owned michigan for a decade plus. I guess delusional might have been the wrong word. But even spartan slappy Valenti admits that MI basketball has surpassed MSU. Beilein is taking 2 and 3 star kids to final fours. No one does more with less than him. He would have 2 nat'l titles in the last 10 years if he had the stacked teams that state has had over the years.

Wagner 4 star
Simpson 4 star
Poole 4 Star
Livers 4 Star
Matthews 4 Star

:bs:

 

[Spartanmack]

Wagner 4 star
Simpson 4 star
Poole 4 Star
Livers 4 Star
Matthews 4 Star

:bs:

oops, that's twice you've pulled a bunch of nonsense out of your ass, Mawilli. You really don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you?

 

[Mawilli]

oops, that's twice you've pulled a bunch of nonsense out of your ass, Mawilli. You really don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you?

Where did I say I was just talking about this years F4 team?

Caris Levert-3 star
Jordan Morgan-3 star
Spike Albrecht- 1 star
Abdur-Rahkman- 2 star

All played or play significant minutes and contribute(d).

Trying to convince yourself that MSU doesn't have superior talent year in and year out is laughable. If you can't admit that John Beilein is better at developing his players then I can't help you. Sorry bud.

 

[Sbee]

Harbaugh's never won dick and U of M fans act like he's Jesus.

agree, people have tried this comparison with me before, saying that Izzo and Harbaugh are both overrated by their fan base. Izzo has the 3rd most wins in big ten history, all time program leader in wins, 7 FF's, NC, 6 big ten tourney titles, 8 big ten titles, etc. there is no comparison

 

[Sbee]

Where did I say I was just talking about this years F4 team?

Caris Levert-3 star
Jordan Morgan-3 star
Spike Albrecht- 1 star
Abdur-Rahkman- 2 star

All played or play significant minutes and contribute(d).

Trying to convince yourself that MSU doesn't have superior talent year in and year out is laughable. If you can't admit that John Beilein is better at developing his players then I can't help you. Sorry bud.

MSU does get better talent, at least more highly rated talent. As for JB, he does do a good job of developing players, maybe better than Izzo, but I also think he's good at getting kids that are underrated by the agencies. They're both great coaches. When Michigan has made deep tourney runs, they have had a lot of highly rated players.

 

[Spartanmack]

Where did I say I was just talking about this years F4 team?

Caris Levert-3 star
Jordan Morgan-3 star
Spike Albrecht- 1 star
Abdur-Rahkman- 2 star

All played or play significant minutes and contribute(d).

Trying to convince yourself that MSU doesn't have superior talent year in and year out is laughable. If you can't admit that John Beilein is better at developing his players then I can't help you. Sorry bud.

Rivals rated Abdur-Rahkman as a 3 star.

You didn't say you were just talking about this year's team but you did say "Final Fours" with an "s" at the end. That made it plural and since this is Beilein's 2nd final four at uofm, you had to be including this year's team when you said Beilein takes 2 and 3 stars to Final Fours.

Now I never said, nor am I trying to convince myself that MSU hasn't had better talent year in and year out. Clearly we do. But your argument was not about Beilein developing players better than Izzo - remember, it was about it being "fucking delusional" to think MSU has been the better program over the past 6 years. I believe what you're doing is called reframing the argument or is it moving the goalposts? Either way, you're making a fool of yourself again. If you can't stick to an argument and admit when you've been shown to be wrong then I can't help you. Sorry bud.

Now, here's what I will say about Izzo - his career accomplishments blow Beilein's out of the water. Beilein can only hope that he'll finish with anywhere near the accomplishments of Tom Izzo. That's why Tom Izzo is in the Hall of Fame and Beilein isn't (yet). It's fucking delusional to think otherwise. And, Izzo didn't always do it with elite recruits. In the first 17 years of his career he had something like 5 kids leave early, 6 if you count Lorbeck who went to play pro ball in Europe. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but off the top of my head, it was Richardson, Randolph, Marcus Taylor, Shannon Brown and then nobody until Gary Harris in 2014 and since then only Deyonta Davis and now Miles Bridges have left early. There have been a few transfers but I don't think those really count.

 

[Spartanmack]

Where did I say I was just talking about this years F4 team?

Caris Levert-3 star
Jordan Morgan-3 star
Spike Albrecht- 1 star
Abdur-Rahkman- 2 star

All played or play significant minutes and contribute(d).

Trying to convince yourself that MSU doesn't have superior talent year in and year out is laughable. If you can't admit that John Beilein is better at developing his players then I can't help you. Sorry bud.

By the way, I just checked the tape on this claim of yours about Beilein taking 2 and 3 star kids to final fours - here's the recruiting stats for everyone who averaged more than 10 minutes a game on Beilein's last final four team:

Trey Burke - 4 stars
Tim Hardaway Jr. - 4 stars
Nik Stauskas - 4 stars
Glenn Robinson III - 5 stars
Mitch McGary - 4 stars
Jordan Morgan - 3 stars
Caris Levert - 3 stars

Not only has Beilein not taken a bunch of 2 & 3 stars to final fours twice, he hasn't even done it once (unless he did it at Richmond - don't bother looking, he didn't. he also didn't do it at west virginia).

I'm not surprised you can't help me, you can't even help yourself. Sorry bud.

 

[Spartanmack]

and now lets compare that to everyone who averaged 10+ minutes per game for Izzo's last FF team:

Travis Trice - 3 stars
Denzel Valentine - 4 stars
Brandon Dawson - 5 stars
Bryn Forbes - 2 stars
Matt Costello - 4 stars
Lourawls Nairn - 4 stars
Gavin Schilling - 3 stars
Javon Bess - 3 stars
Marvin Clark Jr. - 3 stars

So Izzo had more 2 & 3 star kids playing significant minutes on his last FF team than Beilein had on both of his combined. And by the way, 0 star walk-on Colby Wollenman played almost as many minutes as Spike Albrecht did.

Oops. Sorry bud.

 

[dubbsco]

Wagner 4 star
Simpson 4 star
Poole 4 Star
Livers 4 Star
Matthews 4 Star

:bs:

Wagner got stars because of Michigan. The services literally had no idea where to place him because no one knew who he was.

Matthews was a transfer who basically couldn't see even the bench because Kentucky didn't know what to do with him. He looked relatively lost to start the season and his growth has been ridiculous.

Livers was a good HS player, but he's a lower 4-star, 3 by other services.

You need to dig into stuff before just randomly yelling BS. Beilein and Dantonio have historically done great work with lesser talent. Other than Mitch McGary, Beilein hasn't really landed anyone within the 15-20 range other than maybe Zak Irvin?

 

[tomdalton22]

Wagner got stars because of Michigan. The services literally had no idea where to place him because no one knew who he was.

Matthews was a transfer who basically couldn't see even the bench because Kentucky didn't know what to do with him. He looked relatively lost to start the season and his growth has been ridiculous.

Livers was a good HS player, but he's a lower 4-star, 3 by other services.

You need to dig into stuff before just randomly yelling BS. Beilein and Dantonio have historically done great work with lesser talent. Other than Mitch McGary, Beilein hasn't really landed anyone within the 15-20 range other than maybe Zak Irvin?

so you are saying that those guys weren't rated as 4 star players?

 

[Spartanmack]

Wagner got stars because of Michigan. The services literally had no idea where to place him because no one knew who he was.

Matthews was a transfer who basically couldn't see even the bench because Kentucky didn't know what to do with him. He looked relatively lost to start the season and his growth has been ridiculous.

Livers was a good HS player, but he's a lower 4-star, 3 by other services.

You need to dig into stuff before just randomly yelling BS. Beilein and Dantonio have historically done great work with lesser talent. Other than Mitch McGary, Beilein hasn't really landed anyone within the 15-20 range other than maybe Zak Irvin?

McGary was a top 20 kid as a 4 star? Trey Burke should have been higher but he was in Jared Sullinger's shadow in hs.

Do you think MSU hasn't had guys get star bumps because of attention from Izzo? Marvin Clark definitely got a boost and I think Nairn became a 4 star after committing (no way that guy was 4 star talent). Or that none of them are low 4 star kids? again, Nairn. Let's not get too crazy here with Matthews. I'm not trying to take anything away from Beilein but the guy was a 4 star recruit who went to Kentucky - a program that practically has 4 star water boys. He had scholarship offers from Arizona, Kentucky, Kansas and Michigan State. So he had an adjustment period, that's not that surprising for a transfer that road the bench for a year.

I'm not calling BS without looking into stuff - I actually looked into stuff Mawilli made statements about. If anyone needs a lecture about checking data before making big proclamations, it's him.

I'm not saying Beilein doesn't develop talent or isn't a good coach - on the contrary. I like Beilein a lot and I'm glad he's successful but to say he does more with less or develops players better than Izzo does without a doubt just isn't true. Look at 3 star Draymond Green, or Denzel Valentine - 4 star kid who developed tremendously under Izzo. As a freshman he looked overrated but as a senior he won like 9 player of the year awards - all the big ones except the Naismith which he was runner up in. He was also runner up in 3 or 4 other small ones. Look at the progression in these stats...

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/denzel-valentine-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/draymond-green-1.html

edit: I just remembered Dubbs probably still has me blocked - took his ball and ran home over something he didn't like on the politics board. oh well.

 

[dubbsco]

so you are saying that those guys weren't rated as 4 star players?

Wagner, yes. He was slapped a label on 247 with incredibly limited knowledge. Other recruiting sites had him as an NR.

I can find Livers as a low 4, high 3 on places.

Poole and Matthews were 4s.

His entire premise is that Beilein doesn't get elite or even top end players. And he really doesn't. He gets GOOD players, but not great.

 

[Spartanmack]

Wagner, yes. He was slapped a label on 247 with incredibly limited knowledge. Other recruiting sites had him as an NR.

I can find Livers as a low 4, high 3 on places.

Poole and Matthews were 4s.

His entire premise is that Beilein doesn't get elite or even top end players. And he really doesn't. He gets GOOD players, but not great.

This is a bit of revisionist history. His actual premise was that Beilein takes 2 & 3 star kids to final fours. That's not even close to the same thing.

And by the way, Rivals.com has Wagner as a 4 star.

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2015/moritz-wagner-7454

Too bad you have me blocked - maybe tom will quote this post for you.

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

So still don?t think they have a better program? The in game adjustments by a Beilein are beautiful. P

 

[gotime909]

Beating an unranked cinderella is supposed to sway people? I applaud them for making the finals, but I don't even think they beat 1 ranked team on their path.

Also, nobody is saying the Michigan isn't a good program. Just saying that MSU isn't as bad as you seem to think.

 

[gotime909]

I'm curious what in game adjustments you're talking about. Aside from starting Robinson in the second half(which really didn't make a difference), he just let his guys keep playing and they finally started hitting shots. If anything, I'd give him credit for sticking with his gameplan going in.