More evidence...

[Spartanmack]

the Government isn't any more wasteful or less efficient than the private sector.

Can someone remind me again how many private interests can lose 20, 30, 40, even 50% of their business to fraud and remain in business with absolutely zero risk of bankruptcy and no accountability? Literally zero government officials have been fired for any of this gross negligence and some posters on here want to give them more money, more power and more control, presumably with the same level of accountability.

 

[mhughes0021]

We should fire all the states that voted in Republicans that back the 30% sales tax. The entire state... fire them all....ship them to Russia.

 

[Spartanmack]

I?m all for getting rid of the income and corporate tax (and abolishing the IRS) and replacing them with consumption based taxes. 30% seems a bit high though.

 

[mhughes0021]

I?m all for getting rid of the income and corporate tax (and abolishing the IRS) and replacing them with consumption based taxes. 30% seems a bit high though.

Unless you're maniacal about tracking everything you purchase.... there's no way to know if that's more or less than your typical taxes. I know it will make buying a car nearly impossible and probably crash the housing market.

 

[Spartanmack]

Unless you're maniacal about tracking everything you purchase.... there's no way to know if that's more or less than your typical taxes. I know it will make buying a car nearly impossible and probably crash the housing market.

No, you don?t know that and you already pay sales tax on cars in most states. When you get rid of all the taxes throughout the value chain, the cost of producing houses and cars and everything else will go down as will their prices.

And if you don't already track your spending (you should) it wouldn?t be too hard to figure out - take your starting financial assets (savings, brokerage, etc), add your income, subtract your ending financial assets and adjust for interest earned and capital gains/losses and that should be what you spent.

Taxing income does very little to change people?s behavior. When you tax consumption, you tax behavior and that?s how you get change. People will drive less and buy more fuel efficient vehicles if you implement more tolls and a gas tax and use that revenue to pay for roads, bridges and tunnels. If you get rid of income taxes and implement consumption based taxes, people will adjust their behavior.

 

[tomdalton22]

No, you don?t know that and you already pay sales tax on cars in most states. When you get rid of all the taxes throughout the value chain, the cost of producing houses and cars will go down as will their prices.

And it wouldn?t be too hard to figure out - take your starting financial assets (savings, brokerage, etc), add your income, subtract your ending financial assets and adjust for interest earned and capital gains/losses and that should be what you spent.

Taxing income does very little to change people?s behavior. When you tax consumption, you tax behavior and that?s how you get change. People will drive less and buy more fuel efficient vehicles if you implement more tolls and a gas tax and use that revenue to pay for tops. If you get rid of income taxes and implement consumption based taxes, people will adjust their behavior.

but that's not fair...then everyone will have to pay taxes :lmao:

 

[johnny2x2x]

Sorry that Dark Brandon canceled the recession Republicans have been praying for for 2 years.

?Any concern the economy is in recession or close to a recession should be completely dashed by these numbers,? Moody?s Analytics chief economist Mark Zandi told CNN.

And Dark Brandon did so while slashing the Trump budget deficit by 70%.

 

[Spartanmack]

Sorry that Dark Brandon canceled the recession Republicans have been praying for for 2 years.

?Any concern the economy is in recession or close to a recession should be completely dashed by these numbers,? Moody?s Analytics chief economist Mark Zandi told CNN.

And Dark Brandon did so while slashing the Trump budget deficit by 70%.

LOLOLOLOL. Nobody is praying for a recessoin but the jury is still out. Maybe this will be the first time Moody's Analytics chief economist Mark Zandi got something wrong.

Have you ever taken an accounting class? Do you realize Biden's budget calls for higher spending than any pre-pandemic budget in history and the only reason he "slashed that deficit" is because his spending bill failed to get passed and he's still trying to push through trillions more in spending? Durrr, an economist on CNN told me Joe Biden is slashing the budget deficit! Take that Republicans!

 

[Spartanmack]

A little color on the jobs report. The agency that puts out the report is the Bureau of Labor Statistics which is controlled by the White House.

It?s based on surveys of businesses and government agencies and is an estimate that is regularly revised and adjusted for factors like seasonality. January, surprisingly is the month with by far the biggest seasonal adjustments. During Trumps administration, after reporting significant job claims for an extended period, they eventually had to adjust down nearly 2mm jobs. It will be interesting to see if sleepy Joe?s crew ever does that.

Seems odd that the report would be so strong in the face of daily announcements of large layoffs in tech and banking but it?s backed up by the household survey. However, per the household survey, 76% of jobs added in January were part-time. Service and Manufacturing ISM surveys are both well below 50 signaling contraction in both sectors of the economy.

It may be wise for Joe (and Johnny) to hold off on touting such a strong economy if people are taking on a second job to pay the bills thanks to high inflation.

 

[mhughes0021]

No, you don?t know that and you already pay sales tax on cars in most states. When you get rid of all the taxes throughout the value chain, the cost of producing houses and cars and everything else will go down as will their prices.

And if you don't already track your spending (you should) it wouldn?t be too hard to figure out - take your starting financial assets (savings, brokerage, etc), add your income, subtract your ending financial assets and adjust for interest earned and capital gains/losses and that should be what you spent.

Taxing income does very little to change people?s behavior. When you tax consumption, you tax behavior and that?s how you get change. People will drive less and buy more fuel efficient vehicles if you implement more tolls and a gas tax and use that revenue to pay for roads, bridges and tunnels. If you get rid of income taxes and implement consumption based taxes, people will adjust their behavior.

I do know that a home that is 400k now being 520k is a large jump for most of the middle class.

Or a car that is 40k now being 52k is about +$250/mo added to their expected payment.

Not sure how you're saying the cost of homes will come down when literally everything you need to buy to build the home will cost 30% more.

Again.. most Americans won't know what's greater. Their income taxes which are already tracked for them. Or 30% of literally everything they purchased in the past year.

 

[tomdalton22]

Home prices should fall in most areas within the next 24 months. Foreclosures will rise and home buyers typically borrow not based on the total amount of the sale price, but the monthly payment they can afford. Interest rates going up, property taxes will be rising very soon (they lag behind the rise in sales prices) mean buying power goes down.

What it costs to build a new home has almost nothing to do with the cost of a re-sale of an existing home...unless the cost of a new home is less than the cost to purchase an existing home, which is almost never the case.

 

[Spartanmack]

I do know that a home that is 400k now being 520k is a large jump for most of the middle class.

Or a car that is 40k now being 52k is about +$250/mo added to their expected payment.

Not sure how you're saying the cost of homes will come down when literally everything you need to buy to build the home will cost 30% more.

Again.. most Americans won't know what's greater. Their income taxes which are already tracked for them. Or 30% of literally everything they purchased in the past year.

I already said I?m not arguing for a 30% sales tax, I think that?s too high but I?m all for a consumption based tax system regardless of whether or not most Americans know as little as you.

The cost of the home will come down for two reasons. First you get rid of all the taxes and levies on the items in the value chain and second because a sales tax is charged on the final consumer/retail buyer. Sales taxes aren?t charged by wholesalers to manufacturers or distributors. The sales tax would also reduce the price consumers are willing to pay.

Another knock on benefit is it would incentivize people to save more because as I said before, when you tie the actual coat to the behavior, behavior tends to change. If we could do that and get the fed to quit keeping interest rates artificially low, we?d go a long way to fixing our savings problem.

 

[mhughes0021]

I already said I?m not arguing for a 30% sales tax, I think that?s too high but I?m all for a consumption based tax system regardless of whether or not most Americans know as little as you.

The cost of the home will come down for two reasons. First you get rid of all the taxes and levies on the items in the value chain and second because a sales tax is charged on the final consumer/retail buyer. Sales taxes aren?t charged by wholesalers to manufacturers or distributors. The sales tax would also reduce the price consumers are willing to pay.

Another knock on benefit is it would incentivize people to save more because as I said before, when you tie the actual coat to the behavior, behavior tends to change. If we could do that and get the fed to quit keeping interest rates artificially low, we?d go a long way to fixing our savings problem.

I do agree we'd save more... which could also push the economy into that recession republicans are always cheering for.

Say you're right about home prices and a 400k home is now 300k. The previous home owner had now lost his ass. The new home buyer needs to pay 90k in sales tax. Neither one of those is good for the housing market.

90k sales tax on 1 transaction is probably 6 years worth of income tax that person would have paid. 1 transaction.

 

[Spartanmack]

I do agree we'd save more... which could also push the economy into that recession republicans are always cheering for.

Say you're right about home prices and a 400k home is now 300k. The previous home owner had now lost his ass. The new home buyer needs to pay 90k in sales tax. Neither one of those is good for the housing market.

90k sales tax on 1 transaction is probably 6 years worth of income tax that person would have paid. 1 transaction.

it's like talking to a wall.

 

[mhughes0021]

it's like talking to a wall.

Right....cause once again you speak in generalities when you know you're wrong. You keep saying 30% is too high... but then don't give a solution... like any typical republican.

So since you won't do it I'll give the absolute best case in this example.

Let's say the housing market comes down. 400k house is now 300k. Let's say 30% is too high... and it comes down to 20%.

That's a 60k sales tax. That's like 5 years worth of income tax I pay.

 

[tomdalton22]

Right....cause once again you speak in generalities when you know you're wrong. You keep saying 30% is too high... but then don't give a solution... like any typical republican.

So since you won't do it I'll give the absolute best case in this example.

Let's say the housing market comes down. 400k house is now 300k. Let's say 30% is too high... and it comes down to 20%.

That's a 60k sales tax. That's like 5 years worth of income tax I pay.

My guess is real estate transfers would not be taxed.

It doesn't really matter though...a flat tax will never happen.

 

[tinselwolverine]

My guess is real estate transfers would not be taxed.

It doesn't really matter though...a flat tax will never happen.

I kinda think the same thing.

To my knowledge only Ted Cruz, Steve Forbes, Mike Huckabee and Jerry Brown ran for a POTUS nomination advocating a flat tax.

A consumption tax is different though - it?s like a national sales tax that would replace any income tax, flat or progressive.

That said, I also think it will never happen.

 

[tomdalton22]

I do know that a home that is 400k now being 520k is a large jump for most of the middle class.

what middle class family is buying $400k houses?

 

[tinselwolverine]

what middle class family is buying $400k houses?

According to this and this, none really.

With income for the middle house class ranging from $47,000 to $147,000, per CNBC and the income requirements to purchase $400,000 home being $165,000 to $195,000, per Fortune, people at the even the highest level of middle class income don?t have an income for a $400,000 home.

 

[Spartanmack]

Right....cause once again you speak in generalities when you know you're wrong. You keep saying 30% is too high... but then don't give a solution... like any typical republican.

because I don't know the exact rate, but for some inexplicable reason you insist on using 30% as if that's the only option. I don't need a concrete number to make the case for consumption based taxes but I would say 30% is too high by at least 2x for it to make sense.

So since you won't do it I'll give the absolute best case in this example.

Let's say the housing market comes down. 400k house is now 300k. Let's say 30% is too high... and it comes down to 20%.

That's a 60k sales tax. That's like 5 years worth of income tax I pay.

My advice to you if there is a 20% sales tax would be don't buy a $300k house every year.

Why is 20% the absolute best case example? What research do you have to support that? None, right?

I've seen flat tax proposals as low as 10% and as high as 15%. You could replace that with a sales tax in about the same range. I'd probably start looking around 12%.

And how did you come up with a 25% drop in housing prices? I'll tell you how, you pulled both numbers out of your ass to "prove" that sales tax would be more costly than an income tax. Then you used housing, a purchase that people make about every 10 years (that's not exact but it's the average life of a 30yr mortgage) to explain how it wouldn't work. Good job moron. Thanks for not speaking in generalities and being so specific with numbers you made up. Like I said, it's like talking to a wall, only the wall doesn't constantly say really stupid crap.

Edit: In addition, as Tom pointed out RE transactions would likely be exempt particularly since with a flat rate consumption based tax there are no deductions so you probably have fewer people buying homes - since there's no mortgage interest deduction, the government is no longer incentivizing you to buy a house.