Preseason Game 4: Bills @ Lions Thread

[brewer229]

Saying you don't want him to see the field is hating on him. He has potential, but because he was undrafted you don't want him to touch the ball. Kid deserves touches in real games to see what he can do, saying he doesn't is being a Hater. If he fails, they give him less or replace him. If he does well, he could potentially be #2 RB...yes, above Riddick and Bell. Likely he is going to be between those extremes and a solid #3 back this year with potential to be #2 in future years. Have to see what he can do though, not waste the opportunity by never giving him the ball.

No I don't want him to touch the ball often because I think he is the 4th or 5th best running back on this team.

What makes this kid so entitled that he deserves to see real game action to see if he can get the #2 spot, who apparently you already given the #1 to another rookie in ameer abdullah.

Are you being a hater on Bell?

 

[cheeno]

I'm hating on Bell a bit. He's a former udfa himself that hasn't produced much in the past few years. Don't get me wrong, I like Bell but what have you done for me lately? The best players should play and it is not a great leap of faith that that is Zenner. Check out these comparisons below. SPARQ has been a good predictior of football talent for awhile now, CJ for one was off the charts. Guess who else is off the charts? AA-ZZ. Come on you know you want AA-ZZ to be a thing right?


http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/56071/71/analyzing-player-athleticism

 

[brewer229]

SPARQ also puts Golden Tate on level with guys like Kris Durham and well behind Ricardo Lockette. Haven't looked into SPARQ much, mostly because everything is secret, but if you advertise your hits anything could sound like it is a good indicator.

 

[LKP]

You go with SPARQ and football outsiders but refuse PFF game tape grades (which many NFL teams are using now).

*shaking my head

 

[brewer229]

You go with SPARQ and football outsiders but refuse PFF game tape grades (which many NFL teams are using now).

*shaking my head

Is this towards me or cheeno?

He is the one using SPARQ, I was showing it's far from perfect and is tough to gauge because they keep everything a secret.

I'm fine if someone uses PFF, but I wouldn't ignore grades that didn't fit my agenda (QB rankings for example in your case). I'm for consistency, If you are going to use something to prove a point, don't be mad and try and discredit it when you can use the same data to prove the other side of it.

 

[LKP]

Is this towards me or cheeno?

He is the one using SPARQ, I was showing it's far from perfect and is tough to gauge because they keep everything a secret.

I'm fine if someone uses PFF, but I wouldn't ignore grades that didn't fit my agenda (QB rankings for example in your case). I'm for consistency, If you are going to use something to prove a point, don't be mad and try and discredit it when you can use the same data to prove the other side of it.

I don't agree with their QB grades. I agree with all other grades and you can get good stats like hits and hurries and missed tackles. QB is too complicated to grade like that. My logic is sound on this.

Stafford had some misfires in 2014 but he did alot of good. Avoided turnovers and he did it all without much protection, run game, some drop problems and plenty of injuries. They can grade him poorly but it's obvious Stafford did well given the circumstances.

Can't wait to see 2015 Stafford with the upgrades made and year 2 of the system.

 

[brewer229]

I don't agree with their QB grades. I agree with all other grades and you can get good stats like hits and hurries and missed tackles. QB is too complicated to grade like that. My logic is sound on this.

Stafford had some misfires in 2014 but he did alot of good. Avoided turnovers and he did it all without much protection, run game, some drop problems and plenty of injuries. They can grade him poorly but it's obvious Stafford did well given the circumstances.

Can't wait to see 2015 Stafford with the upgrades made and year 2 of the system.

Here is you last year, seemed pretty hyped and proud of PFF for their analysis of QBs in the 2013 season:

Stafford was top 5 passer per PFF
Lions coverage was top 10
Tulloch top 5
PFF knows

Have to sort by the passing category bud. he is 4th by the way.

Pff ranks stafford at 4 for passing. They just went by their overall rankings including run and penalties. Which is not as important for qbs

 

[LKP]

I realized how bad they were this year. Stafford had an outstanding season and they rated him poorly.

Was he top 5 in 2013 and terrible in 2014. You guys said he was terrible both years. I say he was good and outstanding both years.

PFF system doesn't take into account the loss of opportunities due to weapon injuries, protectio and run game problems. I do. I'm right.

 

[zyxt9]

No I don't want him to touch the ball often because I think he is the 4th or 5th best running back on this team.

What makes this kid so entitled that he deserves to see real game action to see if he can get the #2 spot, who apparently you already given the #1 to another rookie in ameer abdullah.

Are you being a hater on Bell?

Lol, no...i like Bell. I'm not saying take away all of his carries. You however said you don't ever want Nyquil to touch the ball which is absolutely ridiculous after the preseason he had. Why would you not want him to have carries and see how he does during the regular season?

Bell, if healthy, starts at #2 (or #1 if you wish).

Nyquil is very nice to have coming off the bench. He brings a slightly different mix, and does it well. Lions use a committee at RB, Nyquil will be part of that. You don't keep the best preseason runner on the bench and never give him a chance during the regular season, that is the single most illogical concept I have ever seen on any sports board. He deserves his carries, after which he is re-evaluated the same as every rookie, especially UDFAs. But to re-evaluate, you have to give him carries. Keeping him on the bench is a waste of roster spot, would be better to trade him at that point.

 

[dubbsco]

Kellen Moore had a great pre-season game yesterday. Do you carry the same logic with him? Should he be guaranteed reps because he did well yesterday?

There are countless guys every year that are preseason heroes, and either play very limited or no time in the regular season.

Abdullah is your starter, Bell's going to be getting some as well. If Zach Zenner or Wynn are getting more carries than necessary, it means your two best have failed, and that's a bad sign.

 

[zyxt9]

No I don't want him to touch the ball often because I think he is the 4th or 5th best running back on this team.

What makes this kid so entitled that he deserves to see real game action to see if he can get the #2 spot, who apparently you already given the #1 to another rookie in ameer abdullah.

Are you being a hater on Bell?

Lol, no...i like Bell. I'm not saying take away all of his carries. You however said you don't ever want Nyquil to touch the ball which is absolutely ridiculous after the preseason he had. Why would you not want him to have carries and see how he does during the regular season?

Bell, if healthy, starts at #2 (or #1 if you wish).

Nyquil is very nice to have coming off the bench. He brings a slightly different mix, and does it well. Lions use a committee at RB, Nyquil will be part of that. You don't keep the best preseason runner on the bench and never give him a chance during the regular season, that is the single most illogical concept I have ever seen on any sports board. He deserves his carries, after which he is re-evaluated the same as every rookie, especially UDFAs. But to re-evaluate, you have to give him carries. Keeping him on the bench is a waste of roster spot, would be better to trade him at that point.

 

[zyxt9]

Kellen Moore had a great pre-season game yesterday. Do you carry the same logic with him? Should he be guaranteed reps because he did well yesterday?

There are countless guys every year that are preseason heroes, and either play very limited or no time in the regular season.

Abdullah is your starter, Bell's going to be getting some as well. If Zach Zenner or Wynn are getting more carries than necessary, it means your two best have failed, and that's a bad sign.

Just stop already. Everyone knows PS4 means very little due to only scrubs playing, no one is suggesting the #3 QB get reps over QB #1...to even bring that up is asinine.

Zeller did well in PS1,2,&3...why would you not give him reps at RB? The only position you don't give reps to is QB unles injuries or blowouts. Such vile hatred about this, it is beyond reason.

 

[brewer229]

Lol, no...i like Bell. I'm not saying take away all of his carries. You however said you don't ever want Nyquil to touch the ball which is absolutely ridiculous after the preseason he had. Why would you not want him to have carries and see how he does during the regular season?

Bell, if healthy, starts at #2 (or #1 if you wish).

Nyquil is very nice to have coming off the bench. He brings a slightly different mix, and does it well. Lions use a committee at RB, Nyquil will be part of that. You don't keep the best preseason runner on the bench and never give him a chance during the regular season, that is the single most illogical concept I have ever seen on any sports board. He deserves his carries, after which he is re-evaluated the same as every rookie, especially UDFAs. But to re-evaluate, you have to give him carries. Keeping him on the bench is a waste of roster spot, would be better to trade him at that point.

All I said is: Regardless you hope neither one has to see the field much (Winn and Zenner). That does not mean never touch the ball.

If he gets 1 or 2 carries every other game or so that's fine. But regular season is not a time to see if your #4 RB is something special. Especially with UDFA. If he shows something in his 1 or 2 carries or gets to play because of an injury you hope for the best.
However you don't waste carries in a real game just to see if he has something. You only do that once you are out of the playoff contention. Bell and AA are healthy they need the carries and touches.
Benefit of being drafted in the 2nd round (in AA's case), road is easier for you.

 

[zyxt9]

Even if Nyquil completely flops and never does a thing he deserves the chance to prove it on the field. When that happens, I'm sure you will thru it in peoples face, tryin to prove how right you were, never realizing your position of keeping him on the bench is worse than giving the kid a chance.

 

[dubbsco]

He'll get his reps when your #2 draft pick and/or Bell prove themselves to be ineffective, or if the game is out of reach. Abdullah is clearly this team's best option going forward, and if Zenner is getting multiple carries a game, it slows down AA's growth.

He's not entitled to carries because he's had a good preseason. If you use that logic, about 30 players deserve time in the rotation over starters.

 

[brewer229]

Even if Nyquil completely flops and never does a thing he deserves the chance to prove it on the field. When that happens, I'm sure you will thru it in peoples face, tryin to prove how right you were, never realizing your position of keeping him on the bench is worse than giving the kid a chance.

Wow, you are so far off base it's unbelievable. I have no desire to see the kid fail. If he is some great RB his talents will eventually show. He will need to continually show them in practice, if he does he will get more reps.

However to say he needs to get regular season reps simply because he had a couple good runs (His longest 41 yards, was a result of great blocking, untouched for 35 yards) in a preseason game is ridiculous.

Like it or not the road for an UDFA is harder than it is for a 1st or 2nd rounder. It may be a year before he proves himself enough in practice to earn regular season reps. Sounds like you want him to play just so you can feel good about the underdog.

 

[zyxt9]

AA definitely should get about 20 touches per game, with Bell around 15, Riddick 10, Zenner 5. These are combined runs and pass attempts. Obviously those numbers are fluid. Based off that production, the following game sees some go up, others down...and it might be dependent on who the opponent is. Spreading touches is a solid strategy used by enough teams that it has merit. Giving touches to a #4 RB in first couple weeks to see if he is legit is being smart. Only way to know if he is better/worse is through playing time.

No one is suggesting that Nyquil gets #2 RB playing time and touches in the first game, barring injuries of course. They are just saying they have high hopes in the kid being able to do well and maybe in his third year he will be a solid #2.

 

[dubbsco]

ZY, I want you to go pick any 4 or 5 teams stats and look up the RB distribution. The main guy gets 200 some touches, next guy gets 80-100, and after that it is a MASSIVE drop-off to the guys in 3rd and 4th on the depth chart. I get you are including both, but I would also figure that the 3rd and 4th RBs aren't even getting in the game 5-10 times a game.

You destroy continuity and growth of the main two guys with some need to make sure everyone is happy and getting carries.

And I'll go ahead and be that guy. Zenner's getting a lot of love because he's a white dude. People are always enamored with the white running back, it's like the Aurera Borelias.

 

[brewer229]

AA definitely should get about 20 touches per game, with Bell around 15, Riddick 10, Zenner 5. These are combined runs and pass attempts. Obviously those numbers are fluid. Based off that production, the following game sees some go up, others down...and it might be dependent on who the opponent is. Spreading touches is a solid strategy used by enough teams that it has merit. Giving touches to a #4 RB in first couple weeks to see if he is legit is being smart. Only way to know if he is better/worse is through playing time.

No one is suggesting that Nyquil gets #2 RB playing time and touches in the first game, barring injuries of course. They are just saying they have high hopes in the kid being able to do well and maybe in his third year he will be a solid #2.

That is around 50 touches a game. Lions RB averaged about 29 a game. Highest I saw for a single game was 37.

I hope the coaches can tell who is improving through practice. That is a huge part of their job.

 

[zyxt9]

ZY, I want you to go pick any 4 or 5 teams stats and look up the RB distribution. The main guy gets 200 some touches, next guy gets 80-100, and after that it is a MASSIVE drop-off to the guys in 3rd and 4th on the depth chart. I get you are including both, but I would also figure that the 3rd and 4th RBs aren't even getting in the game 5-10 times a game.

You destroy continuity and growth of the main two guys with some need to make sure everyone is happy and getting carries.

And I'll go ahead and be that guy. Zenner's getting a lot of love because he's a white dude. People are always enamored with the white running back, it's like the Aurera Borelias.

Race has zero to add to this discussion, do not go there. The reason people are so hopeful is solely based on how pathetic Lions RBs have been. They hope AA and ZZ can one day combine for 2000+ yards. There is some hope, and that drives a wanting to know if the kid is legit. He might not be, but it is worth pursuing.

The numbers were loose, obviously; however, if the RBs are improved it makes sense they should touch the ball about 10 more times per game than recent years, since that also helps the passing game effectiveness.