Tigers lost $20.4 Mil in 2014

[jdeb]

Travis is having a good start but Gose is too. Gose has made more dive catches than AJ had while a Tiger... lol. J.D. seems to be a great find and Rajai looks way better in CF this year.

 

[Rebbiv]

Seriously, why do you get so angry when someone has a different opinion than yourself?

Who cares if he's lefty and cheap if he's not that good?

Good analysis of a player who hits in a pitcher's park <sarcasm>.


Last 3 years Away

J.D. Martinez (27, $3.0 Mil) .283 BAVG .329 OBP .481 SLG .810 OPS

Morrison (27, $2.75 Mil) .263 BAVG .346 OBP .442 SLG .788 OPS

Y. Cespedes (29, $10.0 Mil) .252 BAVG .294 OBP .449 SLG .743 OPS

R. Davis (34, $5.0 Mil) .262 BAVG .309 OBP .362 SLG .671 OPS

 

[Rebbiv]

For those of you who are obtuse.

2011-2013 Away

O. Infante .292 BAVG .317 OBP .411 SLG .728 OPS

I. Kinsler .231 BAVG .303 OBP .387 SLG .690 OPS


A 5 year period, 2010-2014 Away

O. Infante .285 BAVG .316 OBP .401 SLG .717 OPS

I. Kinsler .247 BAVG .306 OBP .397 SLG .703 OPS


Defense 2011-2013

O. Infante 6.1 UZR/150

I. Kinsler 5.5 UZR/150

Defense last 5 years, 2010-2014

I. Kinsler 7.0 UZR/150

O. Infante 3.7 UZR/150


In the context of comparing past performances, they are equal given park neutrality. If we are looking just at 2014, then there is a complete different answer. But was 2014 an anomaly? Consider it was the worst season by Infante since 2005, when he was 23 and with DET.

 

[jdeb]

For those of you who are obtuse.

2011-2013 Away

O. Infante .292 BAVG .317 OBP .411 SLG .728 OPS

I. Kinsler .231 BAVG .303 OBP .387 SLG .690 OPS


A 5 year period, 2010-2014 Away

O. Infante .285 BAVG .316 OBP .401 SLG .717 OPS

I. Kinsler .247 BAVG .306 OBP .397 SLG .703 OPS


Defense 2011-2013

O. Infante 6.1 UZR/150

I. Kinsler 5.5 UZR/150

Defense last 5 years, 2010-2014

I. Kinsler 7.0 UZR/150

O. Infante 3.7 UZR/150


In the context of comparing past performances, they are equal given park neutrality. If we are looking just at 2014, then there is a complete different answer. But was 2014 an anomaly? Consider it was the worst season by Infante since 2005, when he was 23 and with DET.

Can't argue any of that. Nice job Rebbiv.

 

[thehippo73]

I prefer Kinsler over Infante. Someone hitting at the top of the order has more impact than someone hitting 8th or 9th.

Don't get me wrong, I like Infante when he was here. But I prefer Kinsler.

 

[xer0]

I prefer Kinsler over Infante. Someone hitting at the top of the order has more impact than someone hitting 8th or 9th.

Don't get me wrong, I like Infante when he was here. But I prefer Kinsler.

everyone with a brain does because he's simply a way better baseball player.

 

[@Stakesarehigh]

If mlb had a hard cap then contract value would be a more important conversation. At the end of the day Kinsler is a much more valuable guy to have on your team than infante.

Can't break the bank across the board so it's important to note that and I'm sure Detroit will take YC'S contract into consideration there.

 

[Rebbiv]

If mlb had a hard cap then contract value would be a more important conversation. At the end of the day Kinsler is a much more valuable guy to have on your team than infante.

Can't break the bank across the board so it's important to note that and I'm sure Detroit will take YC'S contract into consideration there.

Salary cap is immaterial. It is about losing money and not having good value in certain players.


2014-2017 Salary

Kinsler $62.00 MIL

Infante $30.25 MIL

$8 Mil a year difference.

 

[@Stakesarehigh]

And the Tigers happen to have a very old owner who is fine losing money for the value that is returned in building a brand and having the best players they can field as opposed to the most financially sound.

It skews the contract value outlook greatly

 

[stonecold2136]

For those of you who are obtuse.

2011-2013 Away

O. Infante .292 BAVG .317 OBP .411 SLG .728 OPS

I. Kinsler .231 BAVG .303 OBP .387 SLG .690 OPS


A 5 year period, 2010-2014 Away

O. Infante .285 BAVG .316 OBP .401 SLG .717 OPS

I. Kinsler .247 BAVG .306 OBP .397 SLG .703 OPS


Defense 2011-2013

O. Infante 6.1 UZR/150

I. Kinsler 5.5 UZR/150

Defense last 5 years, 2010-2014

I. Kinsler 7.0 UZR/150

O. Infante 3.7 UZR/150


In the context of comparing past performances, they are equal given park neutrality. If we are looking just at 2014, then there is a complete different answer. But was 2014 an anomaly? Consider it was the worst season by Infante since 2005, when he was 23 and with DET.

I feel that the numbers you use are not telling the complete story of Infante and Kinsler. Your using a one size fits all comparison. The 2 play a completely different game than each other. Infante is more injury prone than Kinsler. Also Kinsler has a lot more power than Infante

Total games played 2011 - 2014

Kinsler - 609
Infante - 550

HR's 2011 - 2014

Kinsler 81
infante 35

Total Bases 2011 - 2014

Kinsler 1085
Infante 835

 

[sggatecl]

For those of you who are obtuse.

Careful there, my buddy Andy got thrown in solitary for similar language.

 

[Thumb]

Careful there, my buddy Andy got thrown in solitary for similar language.

It's okay, Reb has a little hammer in his bible.

 

[sggatecl]

It's okay, Reb has a little hammer in his bible.

:tup:

 

[Rebbiv]

I feel that the numbers you use are not telling the complete story of Infante and Kinsler. Your using a one size fits all comparison. The 2 play a completely different game than each other. Infante is more injury prone than Kinsler. Also Kinsler has a lot more power than Infante

Total games played 2011 - 2014

Kinsler - 609
Infante - 550

HR's 2011 - 2014

Kinsler 81
infante 35

Total Bases 2011 - 2014

Kinsler 1085
Infante 835

If we agree Kinsler played more than Infante over 5 years, would it not make sense that the counting stats (HRs, Total Bases, etc) would lean in Kinsler's favor? And I notices you limited it to the last 4 years. Is it because Kinsler was hurt in 2010 and only player 103 games?


2010-2014 Away (5 years)

Plate Appearances

Kinsler 1634 (326.8)

Infante 1448 (289.6)


wRC+

Infante 95

Kinsler 94


wOBA

Infante .313

Kinsler .309


BABIP

Infante .306

Kinsler .261



Of Kinsler's 3254 Total Plate Appearances, 79.4% are from the first two slots. Infante's is only 56.3%. Hitting first, you going to have more PAs then the guy hitting 7th or 8th.


And finally, SLG uses Total Bases and makes it a rate stat. Infante is .401 and Kinsler is .397 during this 5-year period. HRs is a component of TB, so why list separately?


We can agree to this point, Kinsler has been the better player since the beginning of 2014. We cannot agree that Kinsler was better the 3 years before that or for the duration of the last 5 years.

 

[gotime909]

We can agree to this point, Kinsler has been the better player since the beginning of 2014. We cannot agree that Kinsler was better the 3 years before that or for the duration of the last 5 years.[/QUOTE]



How long has Kinsler been with the Tigers? Does anyone other than you really care what he did in Texas? Omar had a good season for us in 2013, but Kinsler has been better ever since.

Also, you can't just ignore 50% of players games. Home games are just as important and HAVE to be factored in as well. IMO It's like leaving out half the chapters in a book.

 

[@Stakesarehigh]

We can agree to this point, Kinsler has been the better player since the beginning of 2014. We cannot agree that Kinsler was better the 3 years before that or for the duration of the last 5 years.

How long has Kinsler been with the Tigers? Does anyone other than you really care what he did in Texas? Omar had a good season for us in 2013, but Kinsler has been better ever since.

Also, you can't just ignore 50% of players games. Home games are just as important and HAVE to be factored in as well. IMO It's like leaving out half the chapters in a book.[/QUOTE]



People like to evaluate players minus park factors but yes i agree that u can't simply ignore the other games as if they didn't exist. Rebbiv also includes 2010 (which was far and away infantes best season) and then goes on to call 2014 an anomaly. If anything 2010 was the bigger anomaly. Is Kinsler expensive? Of course. Important to note they got him as well as shed the fielder contract by in large

 

[jdeb]

Sorry, but I watched many Ranger and Braves games as I love to watch strategic managers, aka Cox & Washington. Kinsler and Infante in the years posted were rather similar but Infante slighty better stats aside. Rebbiv pointed this out statistically but visually I concur. 2014, Kinsler was abnormally better but I add that when the pressure was on, Infante delivered better than Kinsler. This is why the Rangers were giddy to let him go, he could not deliver in the clutch.

 

[@Stakesarehigh]

No. Rebbiv merely pointed out that they were similar on the road. Kinsler has an awkward home road split that was helped along by the ballpark but at the end of the day the guy is more comfortable at home. He is a better defender (much better last year) and has more power and a bit more speed. We could argue value for contract but infante is barely a league average player the last year plus.

Only in the range of which infante posted career numbers and Kinsler had 2 off years are the two even comparable.

 

[@Stakesarehigh]

To further berate the point infante will make 30 million over the 2014 to 2017 while Kinsler will make 57. Mind u by 2017 they will be making nearly the same. Anyone who says they'd rather have the infante deal is out of their mind

 

[Rebbiv]

To further berate the point infante will make 30 million over the 2014 to 2017 while Kinsler will make 57. Mind u by 2017 they will be making nearly the same. Anyone who says they'd rather have the infante deal is out of their mind

Including option buyouts, 2014-2018

Minimum

Kinsler $62.00 MIL ($57.00 thru 2017)

Infante $30.25 MIL ($28.25 thru 2017)



Additionally, Arlington is one of the better hitter's parks in the MLB. How the hell anyone can include that fact in a comparison is ignorant as hell.

And I am curious, if Cespedes craps out this year...is his previous seasons relevant? That is another ignorant statement. "I don't care, good or bad, what another player did prior to being with DET."