Ukraine

[zyxt9]

Ok, I feel like I'm in a Twilight Zone where Tucker is on CNN.

He had a bit tonight where he is complaining about the US and NATO protecting Ukraine which is being threatened by Russia. He even... he even called Democrats war mongers for pushing to protect Ukraine.

I'm so confused.

When did Democrats become pro-war and Republicans become anti-war???

 

[Michchamp]

Ok, I feel like I'm in a Twilight Zone where Tucker is on CNN.

He had a bit tonight where he is complaining about the US and NATO protecting Ukraine which is being threatened by Russia. He even... he even called Democrats war mongers for pushing to protect Ukraine.

I'm so confused.

When did Democrats become pro-war and Republicans become anti-war???

Maybe you're asking this rhetorically, but there is an actual LITERAL answer: this happened under Obama in 2009. Were you under a rock during those years? Suddently concerns about Guantanamo Bay, Constitutional Rights, drone strikes, and the due process of law were something neither party worried too much about, and if you maintained your criticism of the government's policies under Bush during the Obama years (like, for example, Glenn Greenwald, who's been on Tucker Carlson's show a lot more lately) you found yourself with a much smaller audience than you had from 2001-2008.

For whatever, reason, pushing NATO east seems to be a democratic project; it's clear now that the Maidan protests in 2014 that led to Ukraine's then-president resigning were sponsored by the U.S. I mean, there's written evidence of it from our ambassador at the time, in his communications.

Trump seemed to tone down the rhetoric, but the policies there continued under his 4 years. I don't think our civilian government has much to do with foreign policy... once something gains inertia, it tends to keep going, regardless of what the American people think or want.

I visited Ukraine both before and after all that several times... kinda crazy seeing the results on foot, in bars & restaurants and stores.

 

[zyxt9]

Your feedback was one of the reasons I was started this thread, as I figured you had some perspective beyond simple news.

I remember the history, I'm just confused why Tucker would be pushing this anti-confrontation narrative.

It speaks volumes to the hypocrisy between the Dems and Reps. Any potential for war initiated by one side will be attacked by the other, and then that other side will turn around and partake in a different conflict and get called out by the political opponent.

It is the hypocrisy that I dislike and distrust. The continual drive to push the wedge deeper is annoying at best.

I see the support for Ukraine as a positive. I'm not going to support just letting Putin take it over. I cannot fathom how any American who supports freedom would remotely be ok with Russia taking Ukrainian territories, whether in part or whole.

Tucker seemed to imply we should be afraid of Russia resorting to nukes... which is completely ridiculous and an extreme fear tactic, the likes of which he has railed about in regards to Covid.

It is not remotely healthy to be that Partisan.

I would understand comments around the US already having spent too damn much fighting Covid, but jumping to the highest level Fear is something I have to call out. It has not been an acceptable tactic for the Dems in their vax campaign, it certainly is not acceptable where the Ukraine's sovereignty is concerned.

 

[Spartanmack]

Your feedback was one of the reasons I was started this thread, as I figured you had some perspective beyond simple news.

I remember the history, I'm just confused why Tucker would be pushing this anti-confrontation narrative.

It speaks volumes to the hypocrisy between the Dems and Reps. Any potential for war initiated by one side will be attacked by the other, and then that other side will turn around and partake in a different conflict and get called out by the political opponent.

It is the hypocrisy that I dislike and distrust. The continual drive to push the wedge deeper is annoying at best.

I see the support for Ukraine as a positive. I'm not going to support just letting Putin take it over. I cannot fathom how any American who supports freedom would remotely be ok with Russia taking Ukrainian territories, whether in part or whole.

Tucker seemed to imply we should be afraid of Russia resorting to nukes... which is completely ridiculous and an extreme fear tactic, the likes of which he has railed about in regards to Covid.

It is not remotely healthy to be that Partisan.

I would understand comments around the US already having spent too damn much fighting Covid, but jumping to the highest level Fear is something I have to call out. It has not been an acceptable tactic for the Dems in their vax campaign, it certainly is not acceptable where the Ukraine's sovereignty is concerned.

I'm not a regular Carlson viewer but what I do know of him, he advocated for these wars in the early/mid 90s but has been pretty consistently against armed foreign intervention for a while now.

 

[tigermud]

One thing we can all be sure of, Buck isn't going to do jack squat to stop Russia if he really ever intended to he'da never green lighted their pipeline. dumb buck rucker.

 

[mhughes0021]

I still dont understand why we decide to police the entire world when we cant even police ourselves.

 

[tomdalton22]

I still dont understand why we decide to police the entire world when we cant even police ourselves.

we need to defund the police!!! :cheers:

 

[Michchamp]

One thing we can all be sure of, Buck isn't going to do jack squat to stop Russia if he really ever intended to he'da never green lighted their pipeline. dumb buck rucker.

no, we started it, not Putin. The line where NATO was used to be farther west.

We've repeatedly moved it East, despite promising the Russians we wouldn't.

It's Hard to understand why, other than intentionally trying to start a nuclear war with Russia that will destroy the human race and the planet.

I mean, after the Soviet Union collapsed, in theory there was no more reason for NATO to continue existing, let alone expand... Not really clear what defense purpose adding Poland, the Baltics, Romania, & Bulgaria served... they can't defend themselves or contribute much, if anything , to NATO.

Bush tried to add Georgia too (I'm talking about the country, not the state), but left them holding their dicks when Russia actually invaded them.

 

[Gulo Blue]

no, we started it, not Putin. The line where NATO was used to be farther west.

We've repeatedly moved it East, despite promising the Russians we wouldn't.

It's Hard to understand why, other than intentionally trying to start a nuclear war with Russia that will destroy the human race and the planet.

I mean, after the Soviet Union collapsed, in theory there was no more reason for NATO to continue existing, let alone expand... Not really clear what defense purpose adding Poland, the Baltics, Romania, & Bulgaria served... they can't defend themselves or contribute much, if anything , to NATO.

Bush tried to add Georgia too (I'm talking about the country, not the state), but left them holding their dicks when Russia actually invaded them.

How much of it is us pushing vs. them wanting to be less under Russia's influence?

 

[Michchamp]

How much of it is us pushing vs. them wanting to be less under Russia's influence?

two things:

First, regardless of what they want, we've ALWAYS been pushing. You can look at the WIkileaks cables and see that... there's hard evidence of it.

And I've read (though I haven't personally seen hard evidence) that in the waning days of the USSR, our State Department repeatedly assured the Soviets we wouldn't expand NATO, and they gave their consent to German Reunification, and EU expansion based on those assurances, which we've repeatedly violated. Which is why I'd question anyone saying Putin is the one who needs to be stopped. The Russians certainly don't see things our way, and you have to imagine impartial observers who can read a map wouldn't either.

Second, as far as Eastern Europe wanting to be less under Russia's influence, that's probably true, although it doesn't necessarily mean they want to be under American influence.

And as far as choosing between Russian or American influence if they had to be under somebody's thumb, who knows? I suspect the younger folks in Eastern Europe might choose America, (although like a lot of things American, our myths of superiority are running on fumes at this point). This isn't the 90's or even the 00's anymore...

Older folks, who have to pay the gas bill to avoid actually freezing to death in the winter, and buy medications to stay alive do not see American influence as a fun Instagram alternative, but as a matter of life or death... Russia supplied cheap gas and cheap medication.

I saw those changes first hand last time I visited (albeit now 4 years ago). In the rural areas, or people on fixed incomes were burning trash to supplement the heat in the winter, and any money I sent was horded to afford next month's insulin or whatever.

 

[Gulo Blue]

two things:

First, regardless of what they want, we've ALWAYS been pushing. You can look at the WIkileaks cables and see that... there's hard evidence of it.

And I've read (though I haven't personally seen hard evidence) that in the waning days of the USSR, our State Department repeatedly assured the Soviets we wouldn't expand NATO, and they gave their consent to German Reunification, and EU expansion based on those assurances, which we've repeatedly violated. Which is why I'd question anyone saying Putin is the one who needs to be stopped. The Russians certainly don't see things our way, and you have to imagine impartial observers who can read a map wouldn't either.

Second, as far as Eastern Europe wanting to be less under Russia's influence, that's probably true, although it doesn't necessarily mean they want to be under American influence.

And as far as choosing between Russian or American influence if they had to be under somebody's thumb, who knows? I suspect the younger folks in Eastern Europe might choose America, (although like a lot of things American, our myths of superiority are running on fumes at this point). This isn't the 90's or even the 00's anymore...

Older folks, who have to pay the gas bill to avoid actually freezing to death in the winter, and buy medications to stay alive do not see American influence as a fun Instagram alternative, but as a matter of life or death... Russia supplied cheap gas and cheap medication.

I saw those changes first hand last time I visited (albeit now 4 years ago). In the rural areas, or people on fixed incomes were burning trash to supplement the heat in the winter, and any money I sent was horded to afford next month's insulin or whatever.

I don't mean to say anybody wants to be under American influence, just that they don't want to be beholden to Russia and NATO countries are the alternative. Not even the US. What on earth else are you supposed to pursue other than trade with nations to the west? As trade increases, and Russia acts to counteract it, NATO membership starts looking pretty good.

 

[Michchamp]

I don't mean to say anybody wants to be under American influence, just that they don't want to be beholden to Russia and NATO countries are the alternative. Not even the US. What on earth else are you supposed to pursue other than trade with nations to the west? As trade increases, and Russia acts to counteract it, NATO membership starts looking pretty good.

But that's my second point: Russia supplied them with basic essentials at a discount.

America/the west is supplying them with crap like designer makeup and birthday cake oreos, and they now have to pay for basic essentials from the West at a huge markup because they're competing with richer nations to buy them back.

It's a stark choice that becomes clear later on, and the poor of the country are facing now (and there are a lot of poor).

Russia even seems to be offering the concession now that Ukraine can sign the EU-lite membership they wanted to back in 2014, as long as they give up on the NATO expansion.

The other negative... we've been (I mean who else would do this?) fostering anti-Russian sentiment among the Ukrainian Right by straight-up promoting Nazi German memorabilia and history (by lionizing these types of people). I definitely saw more swastikas on display there in 2018. But if you're one of those idiots that thinks outright Nazism is a better alternative than socialism, you probably don't view an increase in ethnic nationalism and racism & the associated violence as a bad thing.

 

[Gulo Blue]

But that's my second point: Russia supplied them with basic essentials at a discount.

America/the west is supplying them with crap like designer makeup and birthday cake oreos, and they now have to pay for basic essentials from the West at a huge markup because they're competing with richer nations to buy them back.

It's a stark choice that becomes clear later on, and the poor of the country are facing now (and there are a lot of poor).

Until there's an example of it working out for anyone, I'm a skeptic.

 

[Michchamp]

Until there's an example of it working out for anyone, I'm a skeptic.

What do you mean "working out"?

I'm telling you things were not that bad in Ukraine prior to 2014, relatively speaking. The country was poor & corrupt, but people were subsisting just fine.

Now they've lost entire territories to outright Russian action and some of their biggest industrial areas to factional fighting. Neo-nazis have growing influence in their government. Corruption has gotten worse after we de-stabilized their government to get Pro-Western leaders in power, creating power vacuums all over the place. The prices of staples like heating gas, medicine, and other basic necessities have gone up, hitting most Ukrainians very hard.

So... yeah... they traded poor stability for poor unrest, facism, and potential war with their powerful neighbor... also catching the millions of Ukrainians who are of Russian descent in the middle with divided loyalties. And this is in a country with very little history of independence or a national identity. It's been a place that was conquered and ruled over for hundreds of years.

What's your end game here? no one nearby could hold off a serious Russian invasion. The Ukrainian military still can't beat Russian-backed insurgents in the east of the country, and didn't even try to oppose Russia's move into the Crimea.



Unless you think Ukraine has gotten a lot stronger since 2015, or Russia has gotten weaker, I have to imagine the only real option is committing NATO to a war with Russia, with the "prize" being AT BEST a heavily bombed and war-torn Ukraine as a NATO member... and AT WORST, worldwide nuclear war.

Tell me how that works out for Ukrainians?

 

[mhughes0021]

So Ukraine is kind of in NATO...but not really. So lets go to war with Russia....because why?

China should go to war with Taiwan this week too.

 

[Michchamp]

So Ukraine is kind of in NATO...but not really. So lets go to war with Russia....because why?

China should go to war with Taiwan this week too.

I really don't see how we expect this one to end, unless we want another Syria, this time directly on the border of the EU.

At some point, even our allies are going to get sick of us, if our actions keep resulting in millions of refugees heading toward them.

 

[mhughes0021]

I really don't see how we expect this one to end, unless we want another Syria, this time directly on the border of the EU.

At some point, even our allies are going to get sick of us, if our actions keep resulting in millions of refugees heading toward them.

I havent really kept up on this...what exactly does Russia want? The entire country or part of their border back?

Or C...just to piss the world off cause they have enough space already that they dont even use.

 

[tigermud]

So Ukraine is kind of in NATO...but not really. So lets go to war with Russia....because why?

China should go to war with Taiwan this week too.

I think China will wait until after the winter games.

 

[tigermud]

I really don't see how we expect this one to end, unless we want another Syria, this time directly on the border of the EU.

At some point, even our allies are going to get sick of us, if our actions keep resulting in millions of refugees heading toward them.

Do you remember why the repems weren't able to start a war with Russia over Syria. That damn Orange man, didn't take Buck long to get us back on that disaster plan did it.

 

[zyxt9]

The common denominator in all of this sure appears to be Biden.

The last time Russia was this aggressive was during the Obama / Biden administration.

Now why is it that Russia is suddenly acting aggressively again? I honestly don't follow this that closely, but it seems Russia previously took advantage of a relatively weaker US position. Trump being the fucking crazy idiot that he was/is probably made Putin hesitate. Now, well...Biden basically presented the taking of Ukraine in part... though the exact size may very well remain to be seen.