Ukraine

[Michchamp]

I havent really kept up on this...what exactly does Russia want? The entire country or part of their border back?

Or C...just to piss the world off cause they have enough space already that they dont even use.

So, Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union. Russia, in some way, shape, or form, has ruled that part of the world going back to the 1700's. Most of the East of Ukraine is ethnically Russian, speaks Russian, and settled there from Russia.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine gained independence really for the first time in history. Like most of the former USSR, it was a mess through the 90's. It stayed relatively tied to Russia economically, but was open to the west... there were a lot of cultural and business ties. Russia didn't block those; Ukrainian students could study abroad in the EU or US, or wherever. You could go to McDonald's, TGI Fridays (which was actually thought of as a NICE restaurant by Ukrainians), and drink Coke, Jack Daniels, Lite, Bud, etc. etc.

US NGOs and other think-tank kinda places had ties in the country. It's clear Russia allowed that kinda thing to go on; they didn't outright block Western/NATO-tied organizations from there.

In 2014, Ukraine's president was a thuggish moron from the East of the country (the part heavily Russian), and the EU, or someone, or whoever, presented the country an opportunity to vote for eventual EU membership. He vetoed it, and that sparked riots in the capital, which eventually got violent, and spread nationwide.

He got pushed out (which we now know the US was involved in, through wikileaks cables), and then eventually replaced by a pro-Western businessman (Poroshenko). While this was going on, Russia took the Crimea through military force (but without combat), and straight up armed combat between teh Ukrainian army and Russian-backed separatists started in the two Eastern provinces of the country, which are more-or-less de facto independent from the rest of Ukraine now.

So... basically, we stole a Russian satellite country from Russia, but it's still not over, it's a stalemate, that at times turns violent. and lately we started goading Russia over it more.

 

[Michchamp]

The common denominator in all of this sure appears to be Biden.

The last time Russia was this aggressive was during the Obama / Biden administration.

Now why is it that Russia is suddenly acting aggressively again? I honestly don't follow this that closely, but it seems Russia previously took advantage of a relatively weaker US position. Trump being the fucking crazy idiot that he was/is probably made Putin hesitate. Now, well...Biden basically presented the taking of Ukraine in part... though the exact size may very well remain to be seen.

all this is wrong, except Biden has ties to Ukraine's pro-west government, he has intervened there for the benefit of his family.



The rest is absurd.



Ignoring what we did in Kyiv in 2014, is like ignoring Pearl Harbor when asking why the U.S. was being aggressive toward Japan.

 

[mhughes0021]

So, Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union. Russia, in some way, shape, or form, has ruled that part of the world going back to the 1700's. Most of the East of Ukraine is ethnically Russian, speaks Russian, and settled there from Russia.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine gained independence really for the first time in history. Like most of the former USSR, it was a mess through the 90's. It stayed relatively tied to Russia economically, but was open to the west... there were a lot of cultural and business ties. Russia didn't block those; Ukrainian students could study abroad in the EU or US, or wherever. You could go to McDonald's, TGI Fridays (which was actually thought of as a NICE restaurant by Ukrainians), and drink Coke, Jack Daniels, Lite, Bud, etc. etc.

US NGOs and other think-tank kinda places had ties in the country. It's clear Russia allowed that kinda thing to go on; they didn't outright block Western/NATO-tied organizations from there.

In 2014, Ukraine's president was a thuggish moron from the East of the country (the part heavily Russian), and the EU, or someone, or whoever, presented the country an opportunity to vote for eventual EU membership. He vetoed it, and that sparked riots in the capital, which eventually got violent, and spread nationwide.

He got pushed out (which we now know the US was involved in, through wikileaks cables), and then eventually replaced by a pro-Western businessman (Poroshenko). While this was going on, Russia took the Crimea through military force (but without combat), and straight up armed combat between teh Ukrainian army and Russian-backed separatists started in the two Eastern provinces of the country, which are more-or-less de facto independent from the rest of Ukraine now.

So... basically, we stole a Russian satellite country from Russia, but it's still not over, it's a stalemate, that at times turns violent. and lately we started goading Russia over it more.

Thanks for the detail!

So give them the eastern part of the country. No fighting needed. Done

 

[Michchamp]

Thanks for the detail!

So give them the eastern part of the country. No fighting needed. Done

We had a whole thread on this back in 2014.


I initially thought it was a good thing, and was all like "yeah! Ukraine will be more western! They'll have more McDonald's and they'll start smiling in pictures, like us Americans, instead of looking dour and serious. Rah rah rah!"


Now, I think it's been unquestionably worse for them (looking at it from their perspective). Having an active insurgency in part of your country, being openly hostile to a much larger and more powerful neighbor, and giving Nazis more political power are bad things. Even if you get to buy more Oreos, and nicer shampoo and conditioner.

 

[zyxt9]

We had a whole thread on this back in 2014.


I initially thought it was a good thing, and was all like "yeah! Ukraine will be more western! They'll have more McDonald's and they'll start smiling in pictures, like us Americans, instead of looking dour and serious. Rah rah rah!"


Now, I think it's been unquestionably worse for them (looking at it from their perspective). Having an active insurgency in part of your country, being openly hostile to a much larger and more powerful neighbor, and giving Nazis more political power are bad things. Even if you get to buy more Oreos, and nicer shampoo and conditioner.

I should not be surprised to learn of Neo-Nazis gaining power in recent years. Jews have been targeted for being easy prey in that region for centuries, regardless of who is in power.

I'm all for those groups getting their asses kicked, whether by Russia or any other establishment.

 

[tigermud]

Buck won?t even defend our own border and he thinks the American public will support sending 8,500 troops to help go up against 100 thousand plus this guy is a fk?en fool

 

[Gulo Blue]

So... basically, we stole a Russian satellite country from Russia, but it's still not over, it's a stalemate, that at times turns violent. and lately we started goading Russia over it more.

Who do the Ukrainians want to be more closely aligned with? That's the bottom line for me. I can live with the East/West split too if that's what they want.

 

[Michchamp]

Who do the Ukrainians want to be more closely aligned with? That's the bottom line for me. I can live with the East/West split too if that's what they want.

Should I take a poll?

I think they themselves are pretty divided. In 2014, I'd say most of western Ukraine was in favor of aligning with the west. And among the wealthier/educated in Kyiv, who jet off to Europe and travel for fun.

But as you go farther east and the % of Ukrainians of Russian descent increases, it's the opposite.

and older folks that remember better days in the 60's and 70's USSR, I assume they favor remaining aligned with Russia, and harbored some skepticism to what alignment with the West offers.

maybe things have changed more since then. I'm not really up on it anymore for a variety of reasons, other than what I read in our own media.

And I think we should generally downplay the opinion polls on this sort of thing. I mean, if you could weed out the money being spent to sway public opinion, and give them a clear accounting for what each side will do for them, maybe... but we can't. If you ignore that, then you get down to what existing treaties say, and you abide by them. or you go to war.

 

[tigermud]

Does anyone disagree with Gen Flynn trumps original Sec of Defense before the crazy dems railroaded him out of town?

https://www.westernjournal.com/exclusive-gen-flynn-biden-might-get-hundreds-millions-killed-ukraine/

The rhetoric about the Ukraine conflict is out of control. President Joe Biden threatens that Russia would ?pay a heavy price? for any incursion into Ukraine. Secretary of State Antony Blinken warns of ?massive consequences? for Russia. Sen. Roger Wicker of Mississippi told Fox News? Neil Cavuto, ?We don?t rule out first-use nuclear action.? First-use nuclear action rhetoric is not only extremely dangerous, but these types of nonsensical remarks also threaten the stability of the entire world.

Policy wonks throw around the phrase ?failure of imagination? when it comes to intelligence community failures. The entire Biden administration, along with the neocon defense and foreign policy thinks tanks in Washington, are failing to imagine the consequences of the dangers lurking in Eastern Europe currently.
Trending:

Top German Admiral Resigns After Revealing True Thoughts on Putin

War is not fair and is not meant to be. In fact, harking back to the failures in Afghanistan, during a recent State Department call, the following was stated: ?Given that the President has said military action by Russia could come at any time. The US Government will not be in a position to evacuate US Citizens. So US citizens, currently present in Ukraine should plan accordingly.? A stunning statement of failure!

We are again living out the maxim that ?truth is the first casualty of war.? If the people are to have a chance to stop a conflagration, the first step is to resist the propaganda barrage from the establishment media and learn the truth. Only then we can demand our government stop beating the drums of war.

 

[Michchamp]

Oh, Yeah, so (no surprise), https://theintercept.com/2022/01/25/ukraine-defense-bill-democrats/"]it's all about defense appropriations: (I'm just going to leave the URL open like that, since posting links using my iphone is all fucked lately, and I don't know if it's due to apple or this site)

DEMOCRATS IN THE House of Representatives are planning to expedite a massive bill that would dramatically increase U.S. security assistance to Ukraine and lay the groundwork for substantial new sanctions on Russia ? hastening a war-friendly posture without opportunity for dissent as concerns over a military invasion abound.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., told members on a caucus call Tuesday that she?s looking to skip marking up the bill and move it straight to the House floor, setting up the possibility of a vote as soon as early next week​

this will make Republitards has a Sad. Not because of the spending, But because THEY want to be the ones shoveling piles of money to the military industrial complex...

Can you imagine - right now with the country going to absolute SHIT, the American people support shoveling piles of money to pick a fight over and defend Ukraine for no goddamn reason? This is so far removed from what a democracy should be.

What a bad joke.

 

[Spartanmack]

Oh, Yeah, so (no surprise), https://theintercept.com/2022/01/25/ukraine-defense-bill-democrats/"]it's all about defense appropriations: (I'm just going to leave the URL open like that, since posting links using my iphone is all fucked lately, and I don't know if it's due to apple or this site)

DEMOCRATS IN THE House of Representatives are planning to expedite a massive bill that would dramatically increase U.S. security assistance to Ukraine and lay the groundwork for substantial new sanctions on Russia ? hastening a war-friendly posture without opportunity for dissent as concerns over a military invasion abound.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., told members on a caucus call Tuesday that she?s looking to skip marking up the bill and move it straight to the House floor, setting up the possibility of a vote as soon as early next week​

this will make Republitards has a Sad. Not because of the spending, But because THEY want to be the ones shoveling piles of money to the military industrial complex...

Can you imagine - right now with the country going to absolute SHIT, the American people support shoveling piles of money to pick a fight over and defend Ukraine for no goddamn reason? This is so far removed from what a democracy should be.

What a bad joke.

I also have issues posting links from my iphone.

And it's not for no good reason - the Biden's have significant business interests in Ukraine, and the American people must pay to protect them. Could you imagine if Russia took over Ukraine and exposed the Biden's corruption, not to mention more proof that it was the Clinton campaign using Ukraine to manufacture the Trump-Russia conspiracy Adam Schiff is still clinging to? We definitely can't have that.

 

[tigermud]

So can we all agree that getting involved over Ukraine is a horrible idea? Maybe Buck will unite the country after all!

 

[Michchamp]

I also have issues posting links from my iphone.

...

yeah, but that's because you're dumb & your posts are full of typos

 

[Spartanmack]

yeah, but that's because you're dumb & your posts are full of typos

says the guy with the "it's all America's fault" take on potential conflict involving two completely corrupt governments (far more corrupt than our own). The Russians couldn't possibly be responsible, they're just trying to give them better health care and other free stuff but we can't let that happen because we need to sell more oreos. Fucking brilliant. There may be some typos in my posts, but yours are full of stupid from start to finish, front to back and top to bottom. And there's seemingly no limit to it - you have over 31k posts of pure stupidity with your name on them. I'll take the occasional typo.

 

[tigermud]

AP writer Matt Lee asked Price to elaborate on what actions Russia might take.

Price referred back to the supposed propaganda video the American government has viewed, and claimed Russia positioned operatives in Ukraine a few weeks ago with hopes to conduct a false-flag.

Lee said, ?That?s an action you say they have taken, but you have shown no evidence to confirm that.?

I mean, this is, like, crisis actors, really? This is like, Alex Jones territory you?re getting into now. What evidence do you have to support the idea that there is some propaganda film in the making?? Lee asked.

Next, Price oddly claimed the evidence has already been declassified, and when Lee asked where it had been declassified at, he said, ?I just delivered it.?

?No, you made a series of allegations and statements? That?s not evidence Ned, that?s you saying it,? Lee responded.

Again, Lee asked for proof that shows Russians are planning on staging a false-flag.

Explaining to Price why he?s pushing back against the government?s flimsy allegations, Lee said, ?I remember WND?s in Iraq. I remember that Kabul is not going to fall. I remember a lot of things.?

?So, where is the declassified information other than you coming out here and saying it?? Lee asked.

Failing to answer, Price condescendingly told Lee, ?I?m sorry you are doubting the information that is in the possession of the U.S. government.?

Becoming increasingly frustrated, Lee asked, ?What is the evidence that you have that suggests that the Russians are even planning this? I?m not saying they?re not, but you just come out and say this and expect us to believe it without you showing a shred of evidence that is actually true other than when I ask, ?What?s the information?? you say, ?I just gave it to you,? which was just you making a statement.?

Price responded by suggesting Lee go on doubting the credibility of the U.S. government and ?find solace? in information the Russians are putting out.

This frustrating exchange was a bad sign for U.S. foreign policy going forward as the Biden administration is clearly up to something fishy.

https://www.infowars.com/posts/bizarre-exchange-state-dept-called-out-for-anti-russia-warmongering/

 

[tigermud]

Nobody believes the FBI or the CIA anymore, they have lost all credibility

https://youtu.be/hroe2LSBraU

 

[mhughes0021]

Nobody believes the FBI or the CIA anymore, they have lost all credibility

https://youtu.be/hroe2LSBraU

:40-:53 - Nobody believes Tucker Carlson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_W9Tt8vSjg

 

[tigermud]

I?ll believe him all day everyday and twice in Sunday over that shit Ned price tried to pull

 

[Michchamp]

APparently UK's foreign minister, who may be the caliber of a Sarah Palin or a Marjorie Taylor Greene type, went to Russia and made a fool of herself due to a complete lack of geographic knowledge:

The British Foreign Secretary told the head of the Russian Foreign Ministry about the need to withdraw Russian armed forces from the Ukrainian border. Sergei Lavrov replied that the military is on the territory of his country. Liz Truss repeated that they should be withdrawn. To this, the Russian minister again objected that the military did not violate anything, since they had the right to conduct any maneuvers on the territory of the Russian Federation.

After that, he himself addressed a question to his British colleague: ?Do you recognize the sovereignty of Russia over the Rostov and Voronezh regions??

?Great Britain will never recognize Russian sovereignty over these regions,? the Foreign Minister replied after a short pause.

British Ambassador to the Russian Federation Deborah Bonnert had to intervene in the situation, who delicately explained to Mrs. Truss that we were really talking about Russian regions.

​

His question would be akin to an American asking a Russian if he recognized American authority over Vermont and Michigan, after the Russian claimed we were threatening Canada.

If you can't find a country on a map, you shouldn't be allowed to go to war over it. Diplomacy 101.

 

[Gulo Blue]

[/I]
After that, he himself addressed a question to his British colleague: ?Do you recognize the sovereignty of Russia over the Rostov and Voronezh regions??

?Great Britain will never recognize Russian sovereignty over these regions,? the Foreign Minister replied after a short pause.

British Ambassador to the Russian Federation Deborah Bonnert had to intervene in the situation, who delicately explained to Mrs. Truss that we were really talking about Russian regions.

[/INDENT]His question would be akin to an American asking a Russian if he recognized American authority over Vermont and Michigan, after the Russian claimed we were threatening Canada.

If you can't find a country on a map, you shouldn't be allowed to go to war over it. Diplomacy 101.

Well, it'd be like asking a Russian if he recognized American authority over Vermont and Michigan if they were there to discuss America's recent takeover of some Canadian regions Treemon and Fish Again. Not good, but not that much of a shocker either.