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Ferguson, MO

Monster said:
You guys have no idea how much it kills me to be on the side of spartanmack and fox news. I can't wait for this to be over and we can argue about obama again.
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It's a good thing that the lines aren't always drawn the same way in this board.
 
Gulo Blue said:
This thread is pretty long and it's tough to keep track of who says what (and I get that wrong all the time) so I think it's worth saying again. Whatever else Brown might have done in his life and however his family viewed him, on that day, he was thug.

I just don't think that makes all the protesters wrong. I think the reaction to the initial protests were heavy-handed and that heavy-handed response, in combination with the history of racial discrimination justifies some anger and more protesting.
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Protesters I agree with. They have that right, peaceful though. Yell and scream. But the looters and burners..IMO they don't care about the kid, the officer etc. When it's all aid and done they won't be there to help..they just wanted to cause trouble and get free stuff.
 
Mitchrapp said:
Protesters I agree with. They have that right, peaceful though. Yell and scream. But the looters and burners..IMO they don't care about the kid, the officer etc. When it's all aid and done they won't be there to help..they just wanted to cause trouble and get free stuff.
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Agreed.
 
Probably a better summary of the witness accounts than the actual grand jury got:
It would be nice if each grand jury member had this with a slider to shade each row according to how reliable each witness seemed to them.

table-finalfinalup4.0.png
 
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^Summary doesn't say a lot overall. But the thing that jumped out at me was how many said he had his hands up when the officer fired.

The summary really says more about how unreliable witnesses can be with specific details and how their association with a particular 'side' would color their story (no pun intended).

That is why cross examination is important. For as much as Al Sharpton and the Browns' attorney ranting and raving was unproductive, they certainly hit on the mark their comment about the prosecutor not attempting to cross examine the witnesses particularly the accused.

You wouldn't expect the accused to take the stand in a situation like that and if he does, it is your job as a prosecutor to test his story. Not just to accept it as fact and move on. Frankly I think it was terrible advice on the part of the officer's attorney to take the stand unless he had some kind of prior knowledge that he wouldn't be challenged.
 
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Mitchrapp said:
There was probably some disrespect shown. It happens. Bottom line, the guy was a thug that day. It was ALL caused because of him.
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The guy with the gun probably has something to say about SOME of the cause of what has happened since. That said, I think it is clear that Mike Brown didn't help his cause with regard to eventually being shot and killed. But as a citizen I care a lot less about what some 'thug' does than I do about how the police respond to it.
 
tigersofjustice said:
The guy with the gun probably has something to say about SOME of the cause of what has happened since. That said, I think it is clear that Mike Brown didn't help his cause with regard to eventually being shot and killed. But as a citizen I care a lot less about what some 'thug' does than I do about how the police respond to it.
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Brown doesn't rob a store, this probably doesn't happen. Brown doesn't reach into car this probably doesn't happen. Brown, 100% for him being dead.

Who in the hell reaches into a police officers car?
 
Mitchrapp said:
Brown doesn't rob a store, this probably doesn't happen. Brown doesn't reach into car this probably doesn't happen. Brown, 100% for him being dead.

Who in the hell reaches into a police officers car?
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A stupid person. If he was killed at the car I might agree with you. He was killed 100 feet away from the car after running from the police officer though.
 
tigersofjustice said:
A stupid person. If he was killed at the car I might agree with you. He was killed 100 feet away from the car after running from the police officer though.
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He wasn't running away. But the point remains he caused his own death. Actions and reactions..don't be a thug criminal and you don't get dead.

As the chart above charts some people say he was running away when shot and others disagree. Gathering from that community I'd side with the ones that said he wasn't running away.
 
Mitchrapp said:
He wasn't running away. But the point remains he caused his own death. Actions and reactions..don't be a thug criminal and you don't get dead.

As the chart above charts some people say he was running away when shot and others disagree. Gathering from that community I'd side with the ones that said he wasn't running away.
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He was killed 100+ feet from the car. That is a known fact. He definitely ran away there is no question about that. He was also shot in the front of his body so he did stop and turn to face the officer there is no question about that either.

Whether the officer needed to get out of his car and follow him on foot alone and then shoot him when he turned to face him is really the only question.
 
This doesn't happen without Brown. Can't be easy for a cop, when to shoot when not too. In a situation like this Brown is probably dead regardless the cop. Following him on foot? Was he suppose to just let him go?
 
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Mitchrapp said:
This doesn't happen without Brown. Can't be easy for a cop, when to shoot when not too. In a situation like this Brown is probably dead regardless the cop. Following him on foot? Not a chance. Maybe the officer ends of dead.
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The vast majority of officers I know (and I know a lot, and have heard/seen all their stories) have faced similar situations with people and would up chasing them with guns drawn and had them stop/turn to face them. None I know have shot anybody down. So no I would say whether he died or not is completely officer dependent.

The officers I do know who have killed somebody, and I know them too, have frequently killed multiple somebodys in different situations. That isn't a coincidence either based on the way they conduct themselves.
 
Mitchrapp said:
Brown doesn't rob a store, this probably doesn't happen. Brown doesn't reach into car this probably doesn't happen. Brown, 100% for him being dead.

Who in the hell reaches into a police officers car?
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you're right, he's likely not dead I'd he doesn't shoplift, but I don't think you should die for shoplifting. I think deadly force was justified I'm the car but that's not where he died. If you're killed 100 ft outside of the car then there are a lot of questions. I don't think the witness testimony gives a clear indication if brown wad standing still, charging, staggering, or walking slowly.
 
Different situations. All I'm saying is he's dead because he was thug enough to rob someone and reach into a officer's car and hit the police officer. After that it's about doing what you need to do. When he turned around after being shot at, was the officer not suppose to think his life was in danger? I don't believe it showed Brown def. didnt have a gun.

Just like the kid in Cleveland, waving what looked like a real gun around and putting it in his waistband. What was the officer suppose to do there?

Bottom line is don't do thugish things and maybe you live. Honestly, if this didn't happen Brown probably gets killed one way or another at a later time.
 
I'm not understanding this "Brown Friday". First, they destroy innocent businesses and now they want to boycott more business? Wtf does shopping have to do with Mike Brown? They're doing nothing but hurt their own community...again.

And I keep hearing this theme about protecting young black boys. What about the white people who have been shot and killed by cops? What about teaching your kids to not have a street mentality and to not resist a police officer?

Whether Brown got shot while running away or as he charged, the officer was not targeting him based on race. No, he targeted him because Brown told him to fuck off while giving a simple command. It led to him realizing that brown was a suspect and Brown trying to fight and possibly kill Wilson.

As I said, whether wilson shooting him was lawful or not has absolutely no racial motive at all. The notion that this happened because brown was black is absurd and I'm sick of it being portrayed that way. The protesters see only one thing: black boy killed by white guy. Will they loot and protest for the next white death by cop?
 
Mitchrapp said:
Different situations. All I'm saying is he's dead because he was thug enough to rob someone and reach into a officer's car and hit the police officer. After that it's about doing what you need to do. When he turned around after being shot at, was the officer not suppose to think his life was in danger? I don't believe it showed Brown def. didnt have a gun.

Just like the kid in Cleveland, waving what looked like a real gun around and putting it in his waistband. What was the officer suppose to do there?

Bottom line is don't do thugish things and maybe you live. Honestly, if this didn't happen Brown probably gets killed one way or another at a later time.
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That bottom line reasoning isn't enough. It's not reflected in our laws. Hitting a police office doesn't get you the death sentence. Lethal force is justified if the officer is afraid for his life, which he probably is when he's getting hit. But once Brown runs, the justification for lethal force is gone. The question is, after he stopped, did he charge the officer and how close did he get? Wilson was afraid for his life a second time. Was that reasonable? That involves more that just the punching in the car.
 
I disagree with the notion that the shooting had nothing to do with race. I think it had a lot to do with race. The fact that the perp was a big scary black man probably impacted the way the officer viewed the threat. I think that is clear from the language he uses do describe him. If the perp was a small white woman or even a big white man I seriously doubt the officer would have been in so much fear and used terms like "demon" to describe that person.

I don't think the officer was actively thinking, "oh a black guy, I hate black guys, I'm going to shoot him if he gives me reason". But I do think it impacted him subconsciously and played into the level of fear he had.
 
tigersofjustice said:
I disagree with the notion that the shooting had nothing to do with race. I think it had a lot to do with race. The fact that the perp was a big scary black man probably impacted the way the officer viewed the threat. I think that is clear from the language he uses do describe him. If the perp was a small white woman or even a big white man I seriously doubt the officer would have been in so much fear and used terms like "demon" to describe that person.

I don't think the officer was actively thinking, "oh a black guy, I hate black guys, I'm going to shoot him if he gives me reason". But I do think it impacted him subconsciously and played into the level of fear he had.
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But he would have been okay with big scary man?

Red, I think he was. The guy got shot, multiple times or at least multiple shots..reasonable man would have kept running. Maybe he thought he was out of bullets and wanted another piece of the officer. We may never know .. but its a bit unfair to the officer. If not for Brown, this doesn't happen and officer doesn't have to go through life with this on him..

But I think both times, the grab into the car and the stop turn around was enough for the officer to do what he thought he had to do.
 
Mitchrapp said:
But I think both times, the grab into the car and the stop turn around was enough for the officer to do what he thought he had to do.
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So, when Brown was running away....you don't think Wilson was yelling for him to stop? Because otherwise that means he only pursued him in order to kill him. If he was telling him to stop, then explain how that was justification, as you just posted, for Wilson to then "do what he thought he had to do"?
 
Mitchrapp said:
If not for Brown, this doesn't happen and officer doesn't have to go through life with this on him...
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This statement is like OJ Simpson saying if Nicole hadn't fucked that waiter he wouldn't have had to go through life as an accused murderer.
 
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