Americans for prosperity back at it

[Spartanmack]

I have always wondered why most rightwingers so fervently support, admire, and some even aspire to become a member of the uber-wealthy 1%. when the Messiah was always quoted and depicted as being "all-in" for the poorest of his "flock" in the Bible (New Testament). The Bible also contains a passage stating something like : "A rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, is like a camel going through the eye of a needle" (I know that "needle" is not of the sewing or darning type, btw).


Maybe its b/c when taking all of our planet's inhabitants into consideration , we here in the US are all obscenely wealthy in comparison, so we ALL are likely headed to Hell in a handbasket. At least in my case, I probably won't be getting a ringside seat in the deepest bowels of Hades, like the Koch brothers might be.

Just a quick google search reveals that David Koch and the Koch foundation have given over $1bln to cancer research alone, a hundred million to education and science and similar amounts to arts and culture. He's also involved in clean drinking water initiatives both through direct giving and developing clean water technologies (he has a degree in chemical engineering from MIT - by the way sbee, you don't get degrees from MIT because you have a rich daddy). And this doesn't include the endowments in their charitable foundations. See, unlike liberals who view their taxes as charity, wealthy conservatives are by far the most generous philanthropists - religious conservatives in particular. The fact that they think they can do better than the gov't with their money is further evidence of their dedication to philanthropy. The idea that you think conservatives are evil for not wanting to waste money on gov't spending because you want the govt to do your charity with their money shows how naive you are.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I would actually rather pay someone to kill me before that fuckin' movie started,as opposed to having to watch it again.

Oh yeah. Bad example.

How about The Hangover? It would be nice to be able to see that for the first time again.

 

[Spartanmack]

Oh yeah. Bad example.

How about The Hangover? It would be nice to be able to see that for the first time again.

Which one of those guys is Darth Vader's kid? Wait, don't tell me - I want to watch it again and figure it out myself.

 

[Sbee]

This is a nice little pity party for the folks stuck in Detroit. It's also completely irrelevant. Who's fault is it that Detroit schools are a war zone? Or that the city is falling apart? Detroiters have no one to blame but their own crooked leadership and themselves electing and re-electing them. Detroit is a shining example of the abject failure of virtually every liberal social policy and the reality of what job killers unions are. It's a real shame but it's not the rest of Michigan's responsibility to pick up the tab.

And if those people left, it wouldn't be their problem - they don't owe the City of Detroit anything. City union workers didn't have to stay, they chose to stay there and ride the gravy train hoping it would fall apart on someone else down the road.

Do you want smaller government with fewer handouts or do you want corporations to be free to lower the standard of living of their workers? you can't argue for both at the same time. If an automaker wants to leave for Mexico and pay 40 cents on the dollar for labor with no healthcare, then taxpayers ends up picking up the slack.

that's what happened in Detroit, the companies left in pursuit of cheaper labor and the people were left with nothing. You can say the unions ran them off, in reality higher wages ran them off. they went to where they could pay less and less.

 

[Spartanmack]

Do you want smaller government with fewer handouts or do you want corporations to be free to lower the standard of living of their workers? you can't argue for both at the same time. If an automaker wants to leave for Mexico and pay 40 cents on the dollar for labor with no healthcare, then taxpayers ends up picking up the slack.

that's what happened in Detroit, the companies left in pursuit of cheaper labor and the people were left with nothing. You can say the unions ran them off, in reality higher wages ran them off. they went to where they could pay less and less.

Yes, I'm glad you agree, higher, uncompetitive, above market wages and benefits ran them off. UAW workers were making way above market wages and benefits and getting obscenely generous retirement benefits. They were overpaid and it was killing GM, Ford and Chrysler's competitiveness. On average, legacy benefits alone (that's retirees, not existing workers' above mkt wages) added $4k to the cost of each American car - $4k before GM even bought a screw. You expect working class people to pay an extra $4k for a Horizon to support the cushy union life instead of buying a better made Tercel or Civic and pocket that $4k? And if it was just higher wages then why, while Detroit automakers were shutting down union plants were the Europeans, Japanese and Koreans building plants in the non-union south paying working class, market wages with benefits?

 

[Michchamp]

Oh yeah. Bad example.

How about The Hangover? It would be nice to be able to see that for the first time again.

it would? come on man... cinema from Fellini, Antonioni, Bergman, Coppola...

You'd rather taste McDonald's for the first time, not a perfect, rare filet mignon in a mushroom bordeaux sauce?

I expect that from a guy like spartanhack, not you.

 

[Michchamp]

Yes, I'm glad you agree, higher, uncompetitive, above market wages and benefits ran them off. UAW workers were making way above market wages and benefits and getting obscenely generous retirement benefits. They were overpaid and it was killing GM, Ford and Chrysler's competitiveness. On average, legacy benefits alone (that's retirees, not existing workers' above mkt wages) added $4k to the cost of each American car - $4k before GM even bought a screw. If it was just higher wages then why, while Detroit automakers were shutting down union plants were the Europeans, Japanese and Koreans building plants in the non-union south paying working class, market wages with benefits?

those are a lot of blanket assertions that pro-business hacks have been trotting out for a long time. the same thing didn't happen in Europe.

the right & big business have been screaming about efficiency, uncompetitive wages, etc. for decades now, and they've largely gotten their way, and we see the result... higher unemployment, a lower standard of living for more and more Americans who are stuck in McJobs, and Walmart. According to you, union labor has something fundamentally wrong with it. But that's all bullshit... it's just a different way to divide up the pie. Your way leaves bigger pieces for fewer people and says fuck everyone below a certain threshold.

The results will only get worse, as social mobility in the U.S. goes down the toilet. We went through this already... the Great Depression was the result.

I don't really care what you think... I've heard all those arguments for a long time. They didn't hold water then, and they still don't.

 

[Gulo Blue]

it would? come on man... cinema from Fellini, Antonioni, Bergman, Coppola...

You'd rather taste McDonald's for the first time, not a perfect, rare filet mignon in a mushroom bordeaux sauce?

I expect that from a guy like spartanhack, not you.

Sorry to disappoint. I don't have that sophisticated a palate I guess. Star Wars would be one of the first things I'd pick because I don't recall ever being surprised by that reveal. I didn't get Star Wars the way it was meant to be watched, I picked up pieces here and there and became more aware of the story, but completely out of order.

...and for that matter, if I could have a filet mignon for the first time or a cheeseburger, I'm not really sure which would be more mind blowing. Cheeseburgers are pretty amazing. If I'd never had one, even McDonalds might be a real experience. ...even bread. Bread for the first time as an adult would be incredible.

 

[Sbee]

Yes, I'm glad you agree, higher, uncompetitive, above market wages and benefits ran them off. UAW workers were making way above market wages and benefits and getting obscenely generous retirement benefits. They were overpaid and it was killing GM, Ford and Chrysler's competitiveness. On average, legacy benefits alone (that's retirees, not existing workers' above mkt wages) added $4k to the cost of each American car - $4k before GM even bought a screw. You expect working class people to pay an extra $4k for a Horizon to support the cushy union life instead of buying a better made Tercel or Civic and pocket that $4k? And if it was just higher wages then why, while Detroit automakers were shutting down union plants were the Europeans, Japanese and Koreans building plants in the non-union south paying working class, market wages with benefits?

Great points there Mack, you're an economic genius.

so let's see, workers get paid less, so they can only afford less, so businesses are forced to sell things cheaper and cheaper, which means they have to pay workers even less.

translation = economic death spiral

 

[turok]

Just a quick google search reveals that David Koch and the Koch foundation have given over $1bln to cancer research alone, a hundred million to education and science and similar amounts to arts and culture. He's also involved in clean drinking water initiatives both through direct giving and developing clean water technologies (he has a degree in chemical engineering from MIT - by the way sbee, you don't get degrees from MIT because you have a rich daddy). And this doesn't include the endowments in their charitable foundations. See, unlike liberals who view their taxes as charity, wealthy conservatives are by far the most generous philanthropists - religious conservatives in particular. The fact that they think they can do better than the gov't with their money is further evidence of their dedication to philanthropy. The idea that you think conservatives are evil for not wanting to waste money on gov't spending because you want the govt to do your charity with their money shows how naive you are.

So the uber-wealthy can "buy" their way into a heavenly reward?

I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my yapper like the Koch boys were, and lived mainly a lower middle class lifestyle in the city of Detroit, until my mother became an antique collector in the late 60s, and became very shrewd @ finding gems in garage and yard sales. This was loong before most people knew the true value of the antique furniture and other items that were in their possession.

But I digress...once I began working a FT job, I also donated through my employers a portion of my salary to charitable causes, and have ever since. I am willing to bet that I have donated a larger percentage of my annual income than the Koches have. It is also tax deductible, and I am sure that the brothers have tax advisors and an army of lawyers and accountants to help them minimize their tax burden as much as "legally" possible.

As far as my post to Bob, it was done with tongue planted firmly in cheek, as who am I to judge what fate, if any, will befall the wealthy after they pass away?

But the Bible does not make any exceptions or distinctions in that passage, and who knows what the Creator's cutoff is between who will be judged as poor or rich? I would guess that the Koches would gladly give up a sizable portion of their largesse to drink from the fountain of youth, or take a drug that would extend their lives to double or triple what their current expectancy is, or even indefinitely.

 

[Michchamp]

...

...and for that matter, if I could have a filet mignon for the first time or a cheeseburger, I'm not really sure which would be more mind blowing. Cheeseburgers are pretty amazing. If I'd never had one, even McDonalds might be a real experience. ...even bread. Bread for the first time as an adult would be incredible.

Ground beef loaded with preservatives and artificial flavoring so that the taste is consistent for every burger nationwide, no matter how much bovine feces, gristle, and bone makes it in to that particular batch... mmmm...

 

[Spartanmack]

those are a lot of blanket assertions that pro-business hacks have been trotting out for a long time. the same thing didn't happen in Europe.

the right & big business have been screaming about efficiency, uncompetitive wages, etc. for decades now, and they've largely gotten their way, and we see the result... higher unemployment, a lower standard of living for more and more Americans who are stuck in McJobs, and Walmart. According to you, union labor has something fundamentally wrong with it. But that's all bullshit... it's just a different way to divide up the pie. Your way leaves bigger pieces for fewer people and says fuck everyone below a certain threshold.

The results will only get worse, as social mobility in the U.S. goes down the toilet. We went through this already... the Great Depression was the result.

I don't really care what you think... I've heard all those arguments for a long time. They didn't hold water then, and they still don't.

Actually, they're not just assertions, they're facts. Unions kill jobs period. Just look at employee surveys for Toyota of America, Honda of America, Hyundai of America - they all score a minimum of 4 out of 5 stars or better on virtually every category (Jobs Work/Life Balance, Compensation/Benefits, Job Security/Advancement, Management, and Job Culture). The UAW has tried to organize one particular Subaru plant 3 times and failed and the union has never blamed it on resistance from management - the quote from one of the UAW organizers..."People just don't seem interested". So you can keep spewing your bullshit about how management is screwing the American laborer, and make blanket statements about what caused the Great Depression then characterizes my factually supported arguments as blanket statements, I really don't care...I've heard it all from you and your ilk for a long time. It was bullshit then and it's bullshit now.

And the filet is a lady's cut and if you buy a nice steak and know how to prepare it you don't have to use a sauce to hide the fact that you bought cheap meat.

 

[Michchamp]

Actually, they're not just assertions, they're facts. Unions kill jobs period. Just look at employee surveys for Toyota of America, Honda of America, Hyundai of America - they all score 4 out of 5 stars on virtually every category including wages and benefits. The UAW has tried to organize one particular Subaru plant 3 times and failed and the union has never blamed it on resistance from management - the quote from one of the UAW organizers..."People just don't seem interested". So you can keep spewing your bullshit about how management is screwing the American laborer, and make blanket statements about what caused the Great Depression then characterizes my factually supported arguments as blanket statements, I really don't care...I've heard it all from you and your ilk for a long time. It was bullshit then and it's bullshit now.

And by the way, the filet is a lady's cut and if you buy a nice steak and konw how to prepare it you don't have to use a sauce to hide the fact that you bought cheap meat.

we went over that before. The votes were not as clear cut as you make them out to be.

your memory sucks.

 

[Spartanmack]

Great points there Mack, you're an economic genius.

so let's see, workers get paid less, so they can only afford less, so businesses are forced to sell things cheaper and cheaper, which means they have to pay workers even less.

translation = economic death spiral

This is so ridiculously stupid, it's actually making me laugh out loud. Simply put, It doesn't work that way kid. If you were an economic genius or even a neophyte instead of an economic dolt, you'd understand that. Paying market wages does not result in deflation, it results in labor markets clearing more efficiently - it's like gains in productivity and those are good for an economy (an economy, not just producers as it makes things more affordable, leads to growth and thus more jobs). Additionally, market clearing prices for products are not driven by labor costs, they're driven by demand - you don't need to be an economic genius to know that. Deflation is a monetary phenomenon (driven by the money supply) and that's generally viewed as bad although it's really only bad if the people think it's long term and thus delay purchase decisions on the belief that things will be cheaper in the future (this is what's been going on in Japan since the early 90s and why lately they've been trying to set inflation targets) - sort of the opposite of runaway or hyper-inflation where everyone spends their money because they think it will be worth less in the future.

 

[Spartanmack]

we went over that before. The votes were not as clear cut as you make them out to be.

your memory sucks.

http://www.automotive.com/news/uaw-and-why-honda-and-toyota-workers-are-not-interested-1478/

you suck

 

[Spartanmack]

So the uber-wealthy can "buy" their way into a heavenly reward?

I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my yapper like the Koch boys were, and lived mainly a lower middle class lifestyle in the city of Detroit, until my mother became an antique collector in the late 60s, and became very shrewd @ finding gems in garage and yard sales. This was loong before most people knew the true value of the antique furniture and other items that were in their possession.

But I digress...once I began working a FT job, I also donated through my employers a portion of my salary to charitable causes, and have ever since. I am willing to bet that I have donated a larger percentage of my annual income than the Koches have. It is also tax deductible, and I am sure that the brothers have tax advisors and an army of lawyers and accountants to help them minimize their tax burden as much as "legally" possible.

As far as my post to Bob, it was done with tongue planted firmly in cheek, as who am I to judge what fate, if any, will befall the wealthy after they pass away?

But the Bible does not make any exceptions or distinctions in that passage, and who knows what the Creator's cutoff is between who will be judged as poor or rich? I would guess that the Koches would gladly give up a sizable portion of their largesse to drink from the fountain of youth, or take a drug that would extend their lives to double or triple what their current expectancy is, or even indefinitely.

well I guess it's a good thing for them that you're not the arbiter of who lived according to his will and who didn't. And regardless of whether there is a heaven and who gets it, it doesn't change the fact that you disregard the fact that many rich people (Koch's included) do private charity when you accuse them of being bad, selfish, evil people for not wanting to contribute more to wasteful government spending.

 

[KAWDUP]

<reads entire thread>

Spartanmack holds his own amongst a sea of libs. Nice going. Too bad you root for that cow school, otherwise we would probably be fast friends. :*)

<gets ready to duck>
<exits thread>

 

[Michchamp]

if by "holds his own" you mean "changes the subject/moves the goalposts/argues semantics /responds with insults each time someone refutes some bullshit he posts, while never having the stones to concede a point" then yeah, I guess he's held his own.

there are no impartial judges on the internet, and you are an idiot, so whatever.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Ground beef loaded with preservatives and artificial flavoring so that the taste is consistent for every burger nationwide, no matter how much bovine feces, gristle, and bone makes it in to that particular batch... mmmm...

I know I should be grossed out, but I'm not. They're delicious. Maybe not the one you pictured. The regular McDonalds cheeseburger is dominated by bread and ketchup. But the quarter pounder is good, even if it's gross.

I don't eat gross cheeseburgers very often. But it's not because of the grossness you describe, I still think they're delicious (I think a lot of things are delicious.) I avoid low end burger joints because I sometimes feel bad for the cows. So I go to Bull City Burger & Brew about once a week, which is an entirely different class of burger...and I've been to one of the farms that supplies beef for them. It's top notch. I know we couldn't supply all the beef we use via those methods, but those types of farmers are innovative and I want to support them. I have some ideas about how to scale some of those farming methods, but they involve things like quadcopters equipped to take soil samples and self driving tractors.

 

[Sbee]

The pension is part of their overly generous compensation but they don't make contributions to it except in the rarest of cases. And it's not at all like your employers contribution to your 401k as 1) total contributions are much larger with defined benefit plans than defined contribution plans 2) employers pay 100% of DB plan contributions as opposed the less than 1/3 of smaller total pmts to DC plans and 3) DB plan contributions are mandatory while employer matches in DC plans are discretionary and cancelable at any time.

$72k plus health insurance and guaranteed job security is pretty good money for less than 9 months of work. Probably goes a long way in Detroit. That's about $100k annualized in salary alone. Funny how you think that's so easy to find in the private sector. After reading all the other nonsense you've spewed on this board, this is exactly the kind of crap Ive come to expect from you.

wait, you're saying again that 72k per year is a competitive salary in the private sector for someone with 10 years experience and a masters degree? that's your argument?