Americans for prosperity back at it

[Gulo Blue]

Republican House Speaker Jase Bolger has warned that the bills may not advance unless the city workers? unions agree to kick in some cash toward the settlement. Snyder must also persuade Democrats despite their unhappiness with his use of his executive powers to take over control of Detroit?s finances.

Is $195mm without $ from the union not a bailout of the union in your world?

No. A bailout is when you give an entity money so that it does not go bankrupt. The union isn't in danger of going bankrupt and nobody is offering them money.

Somebody asking the union to kick in money to assist in the bailout is the opposite of them getting bailed out.

 

[Spartanmack]

No. A bailout is when you give an entity money so that it does not go bankrupt. The union isn't in danger of going bankrupt and nobody is offering them money.

Somebody asking the union to kick in money to assist in the bailout is the opposite of them getting bailed out.

They are bailing out the city of Detroit and giving preferential treatment to union employees whose pension has gone bankrupt along with the city. You want to say that's not a union bailout (even though it would prevent the union from having to kick in money to save the pensions), fine. I think it's a stupid argument - bailing out the union vs bailing out union pensioners - it doesn't change the fact that the union creditors (pensioners) are getting preferential treatment at the expense of the taxpayers.

 

[Sbee]

They are bailing out the city of Detroit and giving preferential treatment to union employees whose pension has gone bankrupt along with the city. You want to say that's not a union bailout (even though it would prevent the union from having to kick in money to save the pensions), fine. I think it's a stupid argument - bailing out the union vs bailing out union pensioners - it doesn't change the fact that the union creditors (pensioners) are getting preferential treatment at the expense of the taxpayers.

These people paid into the pension funds their whole careers in order to draw from it in retirement. These people took less money than they could have made in the private sector for a city job with a pension. This averages out to about 18k per year.

I guess somehow creditors should get priority over seniors pensions. If they don't have enough money to live, fuck em, they should have seen this coming 30 years ago.

 

[turok]

They are bailing out the city of Detroit and giving preferential treatment to union employees whose pension has gone bankrupt along with the city. You want to say that's not a union bailout (even though it would prevent the union from having to kick in money to save the pensions), fine. I think it's a stupid argument - bailing out the union vs bailing out union pensioners - it doesn't change the fact that the union creditors (pensioners) are getting preferential treatment at the expense of the taxpayers.

I paid MI state taxes for nearly 40 years and city of Detroit taxes for almost 13 years. I am certain that at least part of those taxes went to projects that I would have preferred to go elsewhere, but I had no say in where they were directed. I hate the fact that MI has long permitted double bottom, double semi-trailers weighing over 80K to fuck up our roads, I would not have a problem if a very small portion went to city employees to fund their pensions. Why do you really care anyway, when you no longer even live in MI? I would guess that when you did live here it was likely outstate and not here in SE MI.

 

[Sbee]

Of course you're presenting it as an equivalent but it is of course, false. The saudis' wealth goes up and down almost solely on the price of oil and natural gas which they attempt to manipulate through OPEC. The Koch brothers took a small fortune and turned it into a massive empire. In 1996, they were each worth $2bln, tied for 185th place when oil was trading just below $26 per barrel (that's up ~80% from their estimated net worth when they bought out their brothers in 1983 - a time period where oil prices DROPPED by >15% - but it was just daddy's oil $). West Texas Intermediate Crude is currently trading at $104.55 - that means that if they just did nothing and sat on their oil wealth, they'd each be worth about $8bln. The change in oil prices would only account for about $6bln of the $40bln increase in each of their net worth and they're now tied for 6th place on the worlds richest list.

Of course, these are facts and facts never sway you from your factless conclusions - they will always just be birthright billionaires trying to buy the country with daddy's oil money. But you're partially right about why I'm defending them. I've learned from experience that whenever you make accusations like this, particularly when you're so emphatic about it, it's best to do a little fact checking and learn the truth.

I've realized your going to try to poke holes in whatever I say. You're hung up on the false equivalence since I've pointed out a few of yours.

Yes, I agree that the experience of the Koch brothers and the Saudi royal family isn't 100% the same but I was making a point about profiting off of oil based on your birth. If I tried to draw a comparison between each individual Koch brother you'd find some difference between them and say it's not valid.

 

[Gulo Blue]

They are bailing out the city of Detroit and giving preferential treatment to union employees whose pension has gone bankrupt along with the city. You want to say that's not a union bailout (even though it would prevent the union from having to kick in money to save the pensions), fine. I think it's a stupid argument - bailing out the union vs bailing out union pensioners - it doesn't change the fact that the union creditors (pensioners) are getting preferential treatment at the expense of the taxpayers.

It's not a stupid argument; it's the meaning of the word bailout.

A pension is part of a person's compensation for labor. It should be prioritized higher than an investment, in which it is the investor's duty to weigh risk against potential profit.

 

[Gulo Blue]

It's BS these days that so many investors capture the regulators and government within their influence, they don't think they should assume risk any more.

 

[Gulo Blue]

These people paid into the pension funds their whole careers in order to draw from it in retirement. These people took less money than they could have made in the private sector for a city job with a pension. This averages out to about 18k per year.

Exactly.

These people took less money than they could have made in the private sector for a city job with a pension.

 

[Spartanmack]

I've realized your going to try to poke holes in whatever I say. You're hung up on the false equivalence since I've pointed out a few of yours.

Yes, I agree that the experience of the Koch brothers and the Saudi royal family isn't 100% the same but I was making a point about profiting off of oil based on your birth. If I tried to draw a comparison between each individual Koch brother you'd find some difference between them and say it's not valid.

Poking holes in what you say isn't hard since most of what you say is incorrect. And no, you haven't pointed out a single false equivalence of mine because I don't argue by equivalence. One time you you did use that as a weak attempt to explain away your being a hypocrite though.

The experience of the Koch brothers and the Saudis isn't at all the same. With very few exceptions, the Saudi royals aren't involved in the running of the family business - they just get palaces, planes, cars, cash and wives handed to them. The Koch's turned a small fortune into one of the largest fortunes in the world. They most weren't billionaires when the old man died and now they have $100bln b/w the 2 of them. I've demonstrated that it clearly wasn't all given to them (although they were certainly more privileged than most) and their wealth is clearly not even close to simple oil price inflation yet like always, when presented with irrefutable facts you stubbornly cling to your stupid, baseless statements. It's your standard pattern.

 

[Sbee]

No, you haven't pointed out a single false equivalence of mine because I don't argue by equivalence. One time you you did use that as a weak attempt to explain away your being a hypocrite though.

The experience of the Koch brothers and the Saudis isn't at all the same. With very few exceptions, the Saudi royals aren't involved in the running of the family business - they just get palaces, planes, cars, cash and wives handed to them. The Koch's turned a small fortune into one of the largest fortunes in the world. They most weren't billionaires when the old man died and now they have $100bln b/w the 2 of them. I've demonstrated that it clearly wasn't all given to them (although they were certainly more privileged than most) and their wealth is clearly not even close to simple oil price inflation yet like always, when presented with irrefutable facts you stubbornly cling to your stupid, baseless statements. It's your standard pattern.

More privileged than most? A bit of an understatement, wouldn't you say?

I'm sure they made good decisions along the way to turn a massive fortune into a more massive fortune, bravo. I'm sure global demand increase paid more than a small part.

 

[Spartanmack]

These people paid into the pension funds their whole careers in order to draw from it in retirement. These people took less money than they could have made in the private sector for a city job with a pension. This averages out to about 18k per year.

I guess somehow creditors should get priority over seniors pensions. If they don't have enough money to live, fuck em, they should have seen this coming 30 years ago.

These are defined benefit pensions we're talking about here - employees don't make contributions to them, employers do. But when have you let facts get in the way of a good stupid argument. Here's another factual error blown to hell - these people didn't take less money in exchange for "deferred wages" - those days are long gone. Public sector union employees are generally paid more than private sector counterparts, certainly more than nonunion workers and they receive pensions on top of that. For example, the average compensation of a Detroit Water and Sewer Dept employee was $86k per year. Teachers with 10 years experience earn a base salary of $62k per year not counting vacation, unused sick pay, health insurance they only pay 10% of the cost for and pensions. If they have a masters and they get bumped to $72k.

If that's what you "guess" I guess you're wrong again. There is a priority of creditors in bankruptcy that's prescribed by bankruptcy law. Giving pensioners preference is not only a violation of those laws, it's a violation of the trust of the taxpayers. And they're not doing it because they're big-hearted libs, they're doing it for expedience and to pay for past or future union votes. But you're right, Detroit has been in the shitter for decades - they should have seen this coming a long time ago. It's one of the main reasons I got the hell out of that shit hole 22 years ago.

 

[Spartanmack]

I paid MI state taxes for nearly 40 years and city of Detroit taxes for almost 13 years. I am certain that at least part of those taxes went to projects that I would have preferred to go elsewhere, but I had no say in where they were directed. I hate the fact that MI has long permitted double bottom, double semi-trailers weighing over 80K to fuck up our roads, I would not have a problem if a very small portion went to city employees to fund their pensions. Why do you really care anyway, when you no longer even live in MI? I would guess that when you did live here it was likely outstate and not here in SE MI.

And you would be incorrect - I grew up 15 minutes from downtown Detroit. I care because I think taxpayers deserve better than seeing their elected officials circumventing the law to throw more of their good money after bad. And I care because it sets a bad precedent for impending state and local bankruptcies all over the Country - New Jersey, where is not too far behind the fair city of Detroit.

 

[Sbee]

These are defined benefit pensions we're talking about here - employees don't make contributions to them, employers do. But when have you let facts get in the way of a good stupid argument. Here's another factual error blown to hell - these people didn't take less money in exchange for "deferred wages" - those days are long gone. Public sector union employees are generally paid more than private sector counterparts, certainly more than nonunion workers and they receive pensions on top of that. For example, the average compensation of a Detroit Water and Sewer Dept employee was $86k per year. Teachers with 10 years experience earn a base salary of $62k per year not counting vacation, unused sick pay, health insurance they only pay 10% of the cost for and pensions. If they have a masters and they get bumped to $72k.

If that's what you "guess" I guess you're wrong again. There is a priority of creditors in bankruptcy that's prescribed by bankruptcy law. Giving pensioners preference is not only a violation of those laws, it's a violation of the trust of the taxpayers. But you're right, Detroit has been in the shitter for decades - they should have seen this coming a long time ago. It's one of the main reasons I got the hell out of that shit hole 22 years ago.

The pension is part of their compensation, just like my employer contributions to my 401k.

It's funny you use teachers as your example of a highly compensated public sector employee. So someone with a masters and 10 years experience making 72k is considered better compensated than someone in the private sector?

As for ripping the Detroit area, I'd expect nothing less from you.

 

[Spartanmack]

It's not a stupid argument; it's the meaning of the word bailout.

A pension is part of a person's compensation for labor. It should be prioritized higher than an investment, in which it is the investor's duty to weigh risk against potential profit.

The word bailout isn't the issue - there's no doubt it's a bailout. The issue is whether the bailees are the union or the union pensioners. I don't think there's much of a distinction but if you want to insist the union isn't being bailed out even though they don't have to pony up any cash if the taxpayers throw in the $195mm, then fine, I'll pretend it's just the union pensioners that are being bailed out.

It's BS these days that so many investors capture the regulators and government within their influence, they don't think they should assume risk any more.

There is no scenario where creditors don't take a massive haircut or even lose everything here - no one is clamoring for them to get similarly bailed out. They took the risks and are paying for it. The issue is about not ripping off taxpayers to bail out a politically powerful class of creditors. The issue of disregarding priority of creditors is secondary to that.

 

[Spartanmack]

The pension is part of their compensation, just like my employer contributions to my 401k.

It's funny you use teachers as your example of a highly compensated public sector employee. So someone with a masters and 10 years experience making 72k is considered better compensated than someone in the private sector?

As for ripping the Detroit area, I'd expect nothing less from you.

The pension is part of their overly generous compensation but they don't make contributions to it except in the rarest of cases. And it's not at all like your employers contribution to your 401k as 1) total contributions are much larger with defined benefit plans than defined contribution plans 2) employers pay 100% of DB plan contributions as opposed the less than 1/3 of smaller total pmts to DC plans and 3) DB plan contributions are mandatory while employer matches in DC plans are discretionary and cancelable at any time.

$72k plus health insurance and guaranteed job security is pretty good money for less than 9 months of work. Probably goes a long way in Detroit. That's about $100k annualized in salary alone. Funny how you think that's so easy to find in the private sector. After reading all the other nonsense you've spewed on this board, this is exactly the kind of crap Ive come to expect from you.

 

[turok]

For example, the average compensation of a Detroit Water and Sewer Dept employee was $86k per year. Teachers with 10 years experience earn a base salary of $62k per year not counting vacation, unused sick pay, health insurance they only pay 10% of the cost for and pensions. If they have a masters and they get bumped to $72k.

But you're right, Detroit has been in the shitter for decades - they should have seen this coming a long time ago. It's one of the main reasons I got the hell out of that shit hole 22 years ago.

Considering the state of the Detroit Public School system, I would want that much, if not more to teach or administrate in that "shithole".

Same with working for any city of Detroit government department, many neighborhoods are just too dangerous to live in, much less work. That isn't even taking into consideration, the condition of much of its crumbling and often hazardous infrastructure.

But yeah..."they" should have seen this coming and got the hell out while the getting was still good. Then the city would have had to offer even better bennies and salaries to attract anyone with a sheepskin...

 

[biggunsbob]

Getting back to the "How did the Koch Brothers Make all their money with what daddy left them".
How many people and business did the crush along the way to their extra riches?

Now I am not saying rich Liberal assholes don't crush people too But these two old fucks look like they really have a lot of hate built up in the old prostrate..

 

[turok]

Getting back to the "How did the Koch Brothers Make all their money with what daddy left them".
How many people and business did the crush along the way to their extra riches?

Now I am not saying rich Liberal assholes don't crush people too But these two old fucks look like they really have a lot of hate built up in the old prostrate..

I have always wondered why most rightwingers so fervently support, admire, and some even aspire to become a member of the uber-wealthy 1%. when the Messiah was always quoted and depicted as being "all-in" for the poorest of his "flock" in the Bible (New Testament). The Bible also contains a passage stating something like : "A rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, is like a camel going through the eye of a needle" (I know that "needle" is not of the sewing or darning type, btw).


Maybe its b/c when taking all of our planet's inhabitants into consideration , we here in the US are all obscenely wealthy in comparison, so we ALL are likely headed to Hell in a handbasket. At least in my case, I probably won't be getting a ringside seat in the deepest bowels of Hades, like the Koch brothers might be.

 

[tinselwolverine]

How much would you pay to not know Vader is Luke's father and get to watch Star Wars again?

I would actually rather pay someone to kill me before that fuckin' movie started,as opposed to having to watch it again.

 

[Spartanmack]

Considering the state of the Detroit Public School system, I would want that much, if not more to teach or administrate in that "shithole".

Same with working for any city of Detroit government department, many neighborhoods are just too dangerous to live in, much less work. That isn't even taking into consideration, the condition of much of its crumbling and often hazardous infrastructure.

But yeah..."they" should have seen this coming and got the hell out while the getting was still good. Then the city would have had to offer even better bennies and salaries to attract anyone with a sheepskin...

This is a nice little pity party for the folks stuck in Detroit. It's also completely irrelevant. Who's fault is it that Detroit schools are a war zone? Or that the city is falling apart? Detroiters have no one to blame but their own crooked leadership and themselves electing and re-electing them. Detroit is a shining example of the abject failure of virtually every liberal social policy and the reality of what job killers unions are. It's a real shame but it's not the rest of Michigan's responsibility to pick up the tab.

And if those people left, it wouldn't be their problem - they don't owe the City of Detroit anything. City union workers didn't have to stay, they chose to stay there and ride the gravy train hoping it would fall apart on someone else down the road.