Anybody here go to church?

[Spartanmack]

of course someones spending is another persons income, if we both try to spend less at the same time we'll both be impoverished...

Impoverished by savings - that's a new one. That's almost as ridiculous as "borrowing and spending our way to prosperity". Where do you get these ideas? Before you answer, I know you get them from John Maynard Keynes and Paul Krugman. The point of the question is, who actually believes this garbage?

 

[Sbee]

Impoverished by savings - that's a new one. That's almost as ridiculous as "borrowing and spending our way to prosperity". Where do you get these ideas? Before you answer, I know you get them from John Maynard Keynes and Paul Krugman. The point of the question is, who actually believes this garbage?

If everyone pulled back and spent 10% less, what effect do you think that would have on the economy?

 

[Spartanmack]

If everyone pulled back and spent 10% less, what effect do you think that would have on the economy?

I know that the 10% would go into savings, which in a normal normal interest rate environment would be lent to homebuyers, homeowners, small businesses, etc. Banks would lever that up (they're only required to keep ~10% in reserves) and as borrowers spend that money, it generates more deposits of which 90% can be lent again. It's called the money multiplier. The banks would earn interest margin and savers would earn interest (what a novel concept) and while some of those loans may fail, on net the businesses earn a positive return on the projects for which they borrowed the money. It's not a theory, it's imperical fact. But our system of near zero interest rates, never ending QE and Keynsian stupidity perversely disincentivizes savings. And idiots on the left think that G is as or even better or as good for an economy as C, I and X despite literally mountains of evidence that proves governments are extremely poor allocators of capital.

What do you think would happen? People would stuff it in their mattresses? Or spend it on voter suppression campaigns?

 

[Sbee]

I know that the 10% would go into savings, which in a normal normal interest rate environment would be lent to homebuyers, homeowners, small businesses, etc. Banks would lever that up (they're only required to keep ~10% in reserves) and as borrowers spend that money, it generates more deposits of which 90% can be lent again. It's called the money multiplier. The banks would earn interest margin and savers would earn interest (what a novel concept) and while some of those loans may fail, on net the businesses earn a positive return on the projects for which they borrowed the money. It's not a theory, it's imperical fact. But our system of near zero interest rates, never ending QE and Keynsian stupidity perversely disincentivizes savings. And idiots on the left think that G is as or even better or as good for an economy as C, I and X despite literally mountains of evidence that proves governments are extremely poor allocators of capital.

What do you think would happen? People would stuff it in their mattresses? Or spend it on voter suppression campaigns?

People would pull back in a depressed economy and we'd raise interest rates, right? ok, that sounds like a scenario for a ton of new investment, hell, it's a a down economy, let's buy a new house! what's that, interest rates are higher? to hell with it.

 

[Spartanmack]

There would be some pain, no doubt but we're in pain now and we've had low interest rates for 5 years but we're not generating any real "I" - that's what creates jobs, not "G". And nobody is saving because it doesn't pay. So yes, you have to raise interest rates - gradually, but it has to happen. The pain we endure to clean up the economy is NOTHING compared to the pain we will endure when an entire generation reaches retirement age with no savings if we don't. It's not even close.

And people learn from pain - human beings capacity to adapt and overcome on their own is tremendous. It's like Darwinism, you should love that. But they don't learn from their mistakes if they know in the back of their minds they'll get another government bailout.

 

[turok]

My German immigrant ancestors were farmers and settled the land once called "Connor's Creek" in the NE corner of what is now NE Detroit in the early 1800s. They built the first (Roman Catholic) church outside of downtown Detroit and named it Assumption Grotto. Many eventually died of tuberculosis (consumption) and all were buried in a small cemetery behind the church, which still exists to this date.

Although up to my generation, my ancestors were very religious, most of my generation's relatives, in-laws, and my siblings and I are not so much anymore. I had to attend Mass every day except Saturday while attending Parochial grade school, and am old enough to remember when Mass was said exclusively in Latin. However when I began to attend public high school in 10th grade, I ceased to attend Mass regularly, except for weddings, funerals, and Christmas-Easter.

Both my spouse and I wanted to have a church wedding when we married, since we both were raised Roman Catholic, and in order to do so we were obligated and returned to regularly attending Mass at our,local parish for about a year prior to and a year after we became wed. We also learned about ten years ago, that the priest who presided over our marriage is no longer in the priesthood, and is now married himself.

When I learned about the scandals involving the Church's concealing Priests who were alleged child predators/molesters by transferring them from Diocese to Diocese, that has negatively affected my degree of respect of and belief in its piety.

 

[Spartanmack]

I went to Our Lady Star of the Sea through 8th grade - those Assumption Grotto kids used to kick the shit out of us in basketball every year.

 

[Michchamp]

I went to Our Lady Star of the Sea through 8th grade - those Assumption Grotto kids used to kick the shit out of us in basketball every year.

i always wondered about those catholic schools with weird names. I guess by the time they built them, they had run out of "Saints So-and-so" and "Our ladies of such-and-such" and had to scrape the barrel of catholicism to come up with a unique one.

 

[Sbee]

There would be some pain, no doubt but we're in pain now and we've had low interest rates for 5 years but we're not generating any real "I" - that's what creates jobs, not "G". And nobody is saving because it doesn't pay. So yes, you have to raise interest rates - gradually, but it has to happen. The pain we endure to clean up the economy is NOTHING compared to the pain we will endure when an entire generation reaches retirement age with no savings if we don't. It's not even close.

And people learn from pain - human beings capacity to adapt and overcome on their own is tremendous. It's like Darwinism, you should love that. But they don't learn from their mistakes if they know in the back of their minds they'll get another government bailout.

good point about the financial services industry there, couldn't agree more

 

[Spartanmack]

i always wondered about those catholic schools with weird names. I guess by the time they built them, they had run out of "Saints So-and-so" and "Our ladies of such-and-such" and had to scrape the barrel of catholicism to come up with a unique one.

It's really not that obscure or rare. There are lots of Our Lady Star of the Sea parishes and many of them are well over 100 years old. Although the reference to Mary is not nautical in origin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady,_Star_of_the_Sea), they tend to be more common near large bodies of water like coastal or lake communities.

Edit: unless you're referring to Assumption Grotto but even there you have lots of old parishes with variations on Assumption this-or-that...

 

[Spartanmack]

good point about the financial services industry there, couldn't agree more

If that's supposed to be your "gotcha" moment you have a very short memory. I've said many times on this forum that I opposed the bailouts and am equally opposed to corporate welfare. But let's not stop there - financial services, automakers, homebuyers, state and local governments, etc. It's not a short list...

 

[Sbee]

If that's supposed to be your "gotcha" moment you have a very short memory. I've said many times on this forum that I opposed the bailouts and am equally opposed to corporate welfare. But let's not stop there - financial services, automakers, homebuyers, state and local governments, etc. It's not a short list...

of course not, everyone has their hand out. let's not pretend that it's confined to poor individuals. the poor don't have lobbyists though

 

[Spartanmack]

of course not, everyone has their hand out. let's not pretend that it's confined to poor individuals. the poor don't have lobbyists though

I have never pretended it's confined to the poor or that welfare to the poor should be abolished - just that it should be reformed. I've also said here that I dislike corporate welfare more than social welfare and that CW should be abolished and the government shouldn't be in the business of picking companies or industries to favor with taxpayer's money. The private sector can do that more efficiently and effectively (C & I are much better than G). You keep trying to pigeon hole me into this crony capitalist, robber baron camp you think all conservatives favor. It's just more of your prejudicial liberal nonsense.

 

[TheVictors]

Anyone remember this?? And the whole BS "Main Street vs. Wall Street" narrative was so misleading ...the majority of assets on Wall Street are owned by Main Street in the form of retirement plans.
___________

We are Wall Street. It's our job to make money. Whether it’s a commodity, stock, bond, or some hypothetical piece of fake paper, it doesn't matter. We would trade baseball cards if it were profitable. I didn’t hear America complaining when the market was roaring to 13,000 and everyone's 401k doubled every 3 years. Just like gambling, it’s not a problem until you lose. I’ve never heard of anyone going to Gamblers Anonymous because they won too much in Vegas.

Well now the market crapped out, & even though it has come back some whatever, the government and the average Joes are still looking for a scapegoat. God knows there has to be one for everything. Well, here we are.

Go ahead and continue to take us down, but you’re only going to hurt yourselves. What’s going to happen when we can't find jobs on the Street anymore? Guess what: We're going to take yours. We get up at 4am and work till 10pm or later. We're used to not getting up to pee when we have a position. We don't take an hour or more for a lunch break. We don't demand a union. We don’t retire at 50 with a pension. We eat what we kill, and when the only thing left to eat is on your dinner plates, we’ll eat that.

For years teachers and other unionized labor have had us fooled. We were too busy working to notice. Do you really think that we are incapable of teaching 3rd graders and doing landscaping? We’re going to take your cushy jobs with tenure and 4 months off a year whine just like you that we are so-o-o-o underpaid for building the youth of America. Say goodbye to your overtime and double time and half. I'll be hitting grounders to the high school baseball team to $5k extra a summer, thank you very much. So now that we’re going to be making $8k a year without upside, Joe Main street is going to have his revenge right? Wrong! Guess what: we're going to stop buying the new 80k car, we aren’t going to leave the 35 percent tip at our business dinners anymore. No more free rides on our backs. We’re going to landscape our own back yards, wash our cars with a garden hose in our driveways. Our money was your money. You spent it. When our money dries up, so does yours.

The difference is, you lived off of it, we rejoiced in it. The Obama administration and the Democratic National Committee might get their way and knock us off the top of the pyramid, but its really going to hurt like hell for them when our fat a**es land directly on the middle class of America and knock them to the bottom. We aren't dinosaurs. We are smarter and more vicious than that, and we are going to survive. The question is, now that Obama & his administration are making Joe Main street our food supply…will he? And will they?

 

[Michchamp]

that nonsense is nonsense.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Do you really think that we are incapable of doing landscaping?

From The Spartan of Wall Street.

 

[Sbee]

I have never pretended it's confined to the poor or that welfare to the poor should be abolished - just that it should be reformed. I've also said here that I dislike corporate welfare more than social welfare and that CW should be abolished and the government shouldn't be in the business of picking companies or industries to favor with taxpayer's money. The private sector can do that more efficiently and effectively (C & I are much better than G). You keep trying to pigeon hole me into this crony capitalist, robber baron camp you think all conservatives favor. It's just more of your prejudicial liberal nonsense.

You're right there, countries have some safety net for the poor, I have a problem with powerful corporations and individuals looking for big dollar handouts.