Are these the End Times?

[Gulo Blue]

I don't want to do away with it, I want to put it in its place: private spiritual advice and succor for those inclined. Totally removed from the public sphere.

And Spartan trolls secretly love Taylor Lewan because they wished he played for MSU. That's the kind of people they are.

Religious organizations do tons of good in the public sphere.

 

[Michchamp]

... I see this crap as a threat to the stuff I'm in favor of.
...

Maybe you should subscribe to this man's e-newsletter

 

[Gulo Blue]

Maybe you should subscribe to this man's e-newsletter

You think? It's not really such a dramatic difference anymore anyway.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Maybe you should subscribe to this man's e-newsletter

Is it the same shit he tacked up on the church door, bitching about the sales of indulgences which apparently weren?t even a real thing?

 

[Michchamp]

Is it the same shit he tacked up on the church door, bitching about the sales of indulgences which apparently weren?t even a real thing?

More or less.

I like how Byco just dismissed the basis of the whole Protestant movement with a wave of the hand, like he was Obi-Wan Kenobi or something.

"There was no abuse in the sale of indulgences..."

"These are not the droids you're looking for..."

I mean, yeah, all those protestants that risked death and torture by the Catholic Church to take a stand over this issue - not to ignore the ones that were actually tortured and killed by the Catholic Church - were simply mistaken here.

 

[sggatecl]

More or less.

I like how Byco just dismissed the basis of the whole Protestant movement with a wave of the hand, like he was Obi-Wan Kenobi or something.

"There was no abuse in the sale of indulgences..."

"These are not the droids you're looking for..."

I mean, yeah, all those protestants that risked death and torture by the Catholic Church to take a stand over this issue - not to ignore the ones that were actually tortured and killed by the Catholic Church - were simply mistaken here.

I mean, it's worked for Catholics this long.

 

[tigermud]

Agree
https://youtu.be/gVCZiqqNg4s

 

[Michchamp]

Agree
https://youtu.be/gVCZiqqNg4s

I can see how watching this kind of thing (the youtube video commentaries) can rot your brain. Yikes.

 

[tigermud]

I can see how watching this kind of thing (the youtube video commentaries) can rot your brain. Yikes.

honesty all the dancers running around with jock straps on their heads was more distributing. PWJ should have done a bit about that instead.

 

[Michchamp]

honesty all the dancers running around with jock straps on their heads was more distributing. PWJ should have done a bit about that instead.

It's funny because you think this is political and cultural analysis, but it's more like Joan Rivers critiquing what they're wearing on the red carpet.

(apologies to Joan Rivers)

 

[byco42]

The best way to hide what you are up to sometimes is to conduct it in plain sight and denounce your detractors. There's certainly nothing holy or virtuous about that display.

This is for, you, MC. To answer an earlier objection in this thread. Apparently the Catholic HS you attended was more concerned about winning State Championships than in catechizing its paying students.

In rebuttal to post #25 of this thread.

Otherwise,

 

[tinselwolverine]

The best way to hide what you are up to sometimes is to conduct it in plain sight and denounce your detractors. There's certainly nothing holy or virtuous about that display.

This is for, you, MC. To answer an earlier objection in this thread. Apparently the Catholic HS you attended was more concerned about winning State Championships than in catechizing its paying students.

In rebuttal to post #25 of this thread.

Otherwise,

Back in the day, I remember hearing news reports of Brother Rice winning state championships in this or that or the other.

Never once heard a report that any BR grad made it into Heaven.

 

[byco42]

Back in the day, I remember hearing news reports of Brother Rice winning state championships in this or that or the other.

Football and hockey are what come to mind. A few in baseball, too. And Lacrosse. It's dominating that sport, with 14 championships in the last 15 seasons.

Never once heard a report that any BR grad made it into Heaven.

Come to think of it ...

 

[Michchamp]

The best way to hide what you are up to sometimes is to conduct it in plain sight and denounce your detractors. There's certainly nothing holy or virtuous about that display.

This is for, you, MC. To answer an earlier objection in this thread. Apparently the Catholic HS you attended was more concerned about winning State Championships than in catechizing its paying students.

In rebuttal to post #25 of this thread.

Otherwise,

While I have my doubts that "Catholic.com" provides an unbiased, fair historical view of events such as the sale or granting of indulgences, particularly as that showed the cracks in the facade so to speak, I nevertheless skimmed through the cruft until I got to the applicable section, "ABUSES," which of course is at the bottom of the article:

?It may seem strange that the doctrine of indulgences should have proved such a stumbling-block, and excited so much prejudice and opposition. But the explanation of this may be found in the abuses which unhappily have been associated with what is in itself a salutary practice.
​

Well... at least they admit there are abuses!

These again have been in a special way the object of attack because, doubtless, of their connection with Luther?s revolt (see Martin Luther). On the other hand, it should not be forgotten that the Church, while holding fast to the principle and intrinsic value of indulgences, has repeatedly condemned their misuse: in fact, it is often from the severity of her condemnation that we learn how grave the abuses were.
​

So what? Did they give the money back? Stop doing it? Is a murderer no longer a murderer if he condemns the act of murder?

Here, as in so many other matters, the love of money was the chief root of the evil; indulgences were employed by mercenary ecclesiastics as a means of pecuniary gain. Leaving the details concerning this traffic to a subsequent article (see Reformation), [edit: FUCK, so I have to read another article on this?] it may suffice for the present to note that the doctrine itself has no natural or necessary connection with pecuniary profit, as is evident from the fact that the abundant indulgences of the present day are free from this evil association
​

So they stopped doing it... recently... after it no longer got tenable in modern, civilized society. Just like they stopped torturing people they could get their hands on who they didn't like. That doesn't excuse the past abuses.

From the article on Reformation:

CAUSES OF THE REFORMATION: The causes of the great religious revolt of the sixteenth century must be sought as far back as the fourteenth. The doctrine of the Church, it is true, had remained pure; saintly lives were yet frequent in all parts of Europe, and the numerous beneficent medieval institutions of the Church continued their course uninterruptedly. Whatever unhappy conditions existed were largely due to civil and profane influences or to the exercise of authority by ecclesiastics in civil spheres
​

Okay, that's BULLSHIT. The Medieval/Early Modern Church was as much a part of all that as any civil authority.

then scrolling through paragraph after paragraph of more Theological Jacking Off, we get to

II. ORIGINAL IDEAS AND PURPOSES OF THE REFORMERS.

...
The war against the Turks and other crises, the erection of churches and monasteries, and numerous other causes led to the granting of indulgences in the fifteenth century. The consequent abuses were heightened by the fact that secular rulers frequently forbade the promulgation of indulgences within their territories, consenting only on condition that a portion of the receipts should be given to them. In practice, therefore, and in the public mind the promulgation of indulgences took on an economic aspect, and, as they were frequent, many came to regard them as an oppressive tax. Vainly did earnest men raise their voices against this abuse, which aroused no little bitterness against the ecclesiastical order and particularly the Papal Curia. [editor's note: So people at the time complained, but the Church didn't do anything about it because they WANTED THE MONEY] The promulgation of indulgences for the new St. Peter?s furnished Luther with an opportunity to attack openly indulgences in general, and this attack was the immediate occasion of the Reformation in Germany. ...
​

From there, Catholic.com quickly switches to attacking Luther personally, and the motives of the German princes who protected him from Catholic reactionaries... which is fair, but misses the point: can you just imagine how badly they would have tortured Luther's ass to death in Rome if they could've gotten their claws on him? I don't blame him for hiding out in Saxony or wherever, regardless of the Elector's motives in harboring him.

Regardless... the Church admits it! They pissed off the Germans by selling boatloads of indulgences there to finance the construction of a new St. Peter's In Rome, and that was the whole catalyst for the Reformation. And St. Peter's is THERE (link) and they never gave the money back or made up for it!

Back in the day, I remember hearing news reports of Brother Rice winning state championships in this or that or the other.

Never once heard a report that any BR grad made it into Heaven.

If the alumni magazines and articles BR publishes are anything to go on, the greatest alumni found (or inherit) small-to-midsize family businesses in the Metro Detroit area (that do one of the following: plumbing, sanitation, cement mixing, accounting, civil engineering, etc.) and give lots of money to Brother Rice. Mega-bonus points go to former football players.

The dress code at events seems to be: a way-too-big sport coat over an untucked oxford or button down shirt, jeans, and loafers.

Whether any of these people go to heaven, I can say that since I don't believe heaven exists, my answer is an unequivocable: NO. But they do get their names on scholarships, buildings, parking lots, classrooms, etc. ...

 

[tinselwolverine]

While I have my doubts that "Catholic.com" provides an unbiased, fair historical view of events such as the sale or granting of indulgences, particularly as that showed the cracks in the facade so to speak, I nevertheless skimmed through the cruft until I got to the applicable section, "ABUSES," which of course is at the bottom of the article:

?It may seem strange that the doctrine of indulgences should have proved such a stumbling-block, and excited so much prejudice and opposition. But the explanation of this may be found in the abuses which unhappily have been associated with what is in itself a salutary practice.
​

Well... at least they admit there are abuses!

These again have been in a special way the object of attack because, doubtless, of their connection with Luther?s revolt (see Martin Luther). On the other hand, it should not be forgotten that the Church, while holding fast to the principle and intrinsic value of indulgences, has repeatedly condemned their misuse: in fact, it is often from the severity of her condemnation that we learn how grave the abuses were.
​

So what? Did they give the money back? Stop doing it? Is a murderer no longer a murderer if he condemns the act of murder?

Here, as in so many other matters, the love of money was the chief root of the evil; indulgences were employed by mercenary ecclesiastics as a means of pecuniary gain. Leaving the details concerning this traffic to a subsequent article (see Reformation), [edit: FUCK, so I have to read another article on this?] it may suffice for the present to note that the doctrine itself has no natural or necessary connection with pecuniary profit, as is evident from the fact that the abundant indulgences of the present day are free from this evil association
​

So they stopped doing it... recently... after it no longer got tenable in modern, civilized society. Just like they stopped torturing people they could get their hands on who they didn't like. That doesn't excuse the past abuses.

From the article on Reformation:

CAUSES OF THE REFORMATION: The causes of the great religious revolt of the sixteenth century must be sought as far back as the fourteenth. The doctrine of the Church, it is true, had remained pure; saintly lives were yet frequent in all parts of Europe, and the numerous beneficent medieval institutions of the Church continued their course uninterruptedly. Whatever unhappy conditions existed were largely due to civil and profane influences or to the exercise of authority by ecclesiastics in civil spheres
​

Okay, that's BULLSHIT. The Medieval/Early Modern Church was as much a part of all that as any civil authority.

then scrolling through paragraph after paragraph of more Theological Jacking Off, we get to

II. ORIGINAL IDEAS AND PURPOSES OF THE REFORMERS.

...
The war against the Turks and other crises, the erection of churches and monasteries, and numerous other causes led to the granting of indulgences in the fifteenth century. The consequent abuses were heightened by the fact that secular rulers frequently forbade the promulgation of indulgences within their territories, consenting only on condition that a portion of the receipts should be given to them. In practice, therefore, and in the public mind the promulgation of indulgences took on an economic aspect, and, as they were frequent, many came to regard them as an oppressive tax. Vainly did earnest men raise their voices against this abuse, which aroused no little bitterness against the ecclesiastical order and particularly the Papal Curia. [editor's note: So people at the time complained, but the Church didn't do anything about it because they WANTED THE MONEY] The promulgation of indulgences for the new St. Peter?s furnished Luther with an opportunity to attack openly indulgences in general, and this attack was the immediate occasion of the Reformation in Germany. ...
​

From there, Catholic.com quickly switches to attacking Luther personally, and the motives of the German princes who protected him from Catholic reactionaries... which is fair, but misses the point: can you just imagine how badly they would have tortured Luther's ass to death in Rome if they could've gotten their claws on him? I don't blame him for hiding out in Saxony or wherever, regardless of the Elector's motives in harboring him.

Regardless... the Church admits it! They pissed off the Germans by selling boatloads of indulgences there to finance the construction of a new St. Peter's In Rome, and that was the whole catalyst for the Reformation. And St. Peter's is THERE (link) and they never gave the money back or made up for it!




If the alumni magazines and articles BR publishes are anything to go on, the greatest alumni found (or inherit) small-to-midsize family businesses in the Metro Detroit area (that do one of the following: plumbing, sanitation, cement mixing, accounting, civil engineering, etc.) and give lots of money to Brother Rice. Mega-bonus points go to former football players.

The dress code at events seems to be: a way-too-big sport coat over an untucked oxford or button down shirt, jeans, and loafers.

Whether any of these people go to heaven, I can say that since I don't believe heaven exists, my answer is an unequivocable: NO. But they do get their names on scholarships, buildings, parking lots, classrooms, etc. ...

Ironically, it was announced today that the Go Go?s are nominees for induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and they famously claimed ?Heaven is a place on Earth...?

 

[Michchamp]

Ironically, it was announced today that the Go Go?s are nominees for induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and they famously claimed ?Heaven is a place on Earth...?

There's gotta be a town named Heaven (probably several) around the world, but I'm having trouble finding them, and wikipedia is not helpful. I did find this though:

As a result of increased notoriety, road signs are commonly stolen in Fucking, Austria, as souvenirs[45] ? the only crime which has been reported in the village.[46] It cost some 300 euros to replace each stolen sign, and the costs were reflected in the taxes that local residents pay.[47] In 2004, owing mainly to the stolen signs, a vote was held on changing the village's name, but the residents voted against doing so.[48] Tarsdorf municipality's mayor Siegfried H?ppl stated that it was decided to keep the name as it had existed for 800 years,[48] and further stated that "everyone here knows what it means in English, but for us Fucking is Fucking ? and it's going to stay Fucking."
​

 

[byco42]

In regards, to "ABUSES" being at the bottom of the link. There was anchor text.

As for "recently" admitting abuses, the Church was addressing this issue as far back as the 8th century, and continued through the 16th and even unto now.

Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place, while men would be induced by the same means to contribute to some pious cause such as the building of churches, the endowment of hospitals, or the organization of a crusade.
It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded. Looked at in this light, it might well seem a suitable condition for gaining the spiritual benefit of an indulgence. Yet, however innocent in itself, this practice was fraught with grave danger, and soon became a fruitful source of evil.​

Perhaps this will address the innate soundness of partially financing St. Peter's through indulgences. It would also be useful to be familiar with what an Indulgence is and is not.

 

[Michchamp]

In regards, to "ABUSES" being at the bottom of the link. There was anchor text.

As for "recently" admitting abuses, the Church was addressing this issue as far back as the 8th century, and continued through the 16th and even unto now.

Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place, while men would be induced by the same means to contribute to some pious cause such as the building of churches, the endowment of hospitals, or the organization of a crusade.
It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded. Looked at in this light, it might well seem a suitable condition for gaining the spiritual benefit of an indulgence. Yet, however innocent in itself, this practice was fraught with grave danger, and soon became a fruitful source of evil.​

Perhaps this will address the innate soundness of partially financing St. Peter's through indulgences. It would also be useful to be familiar with what an Indulgence is and is not.

Throughout the article I was also thinking how absurd it was that the Church is defending itself using definitions of things that it made up and defined.

Also "To give money to God..." ... how does one do that exactly? Does the Almighty have a bank account with Chase? Does he take VISA?

No? I have to give money to these self-appointed human intermediaries, who live quite lavishly off it here on Earth?

 

[tinselwolverine]

There's gotta be a town named Heaven (probably several) around the world, but I'm having trouble finding them, and wikipedia is not helpful. I did find this though:

As a result of increased notoriety, road signs are commonly stolen in Fucking, Austria, as souvenirs[45] ? the only crime which has been reported in the village.[46] It cost some 300 euros to replace each stolen sign, and the costs were reflected in the taxes that local residents pay.[47] In 2004, owing mainly to the stolen signs, a vote was held on changing the village's name, but the residents voted against doing so.[48] Tarsdorf municipality's mayor Siegfried H?ppl stated that it was decided to keep the name as it had existed for 800 years,[48] and further stated that "everyone here knows what it means in English, but for us Fucking is Fucking ? and it's going to stay Fucking."
​

There are lots of places in the world whose names are profane in English. On my last smart phone, I looked a bunch up in my Weather check section, and I saved them, so I knew the temperature in places all around the world.

 

[Spartanmack]

Ironically, it was announced today that the Go Go?s are nominees for induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and they famously claimed ?Heaven is a place on Earth...?

I'm pretty sure that was a Belinda Carlisle solo effort. Belinda was part of the Go Gos, perhaps the only part people remember other than maybe Jane Wiedlin. I remember the video well, way back when music was part of the programming on MTV, because it was it was her comeback after sobering up - she lost a bunch of weight and looked pretty hot.