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Bachmann is...

So you're saying there is some supply of profit that you can just shift to labor...

sure there is profit - that's why businesses exist right? But however much there is, why would you just arbitrarily shift it to labor? Is labor the scarce resource? Not in this economy. If labor is clearing at a fair price, what difference does it make how much profit, if any there is in the system?

Similarly, if there is no profit or even negative profit, should labor prices be adjusted downward below their fair value to allow for some minimum level of profit?
 
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Is this deflection or are you really dumb enough to think I was making fun of the professor and not you? Not only did you misquote/misrepresent basic economics, you just piled a bunch of unrelated info from what you remember from an economics class that doesn't even remotely indicate the minimum wage lifts wages for any other workers, let alone 10s of millions of other workers. Again, it was nothing more than typical michturd Gish gallop. I'm sure thumb was impressed though, but then thumb is an idiot.

By the way, did you happen to notice that Mr. Charles is on the staff of the Harris School of Public Policy and is NOT a professor of economics and is not employed by the Economics Department (or the Business School) or even the college that the econ department at the University of Chicago is part of? Did you also know that, outside of the Business School and the Economics Department, the University of Chicago is actually a very liberal institution? So if Mr. Charles is an uber left liberal whack job like you, the distiginguished faculty of the Economics Department and the B School probably don't hate him but they probably disagree with a lot of what he says.

Thoughtful as always
 
Thoughtful as always

yes, it takes a lot of "thought" to explain to you that you're a fool for thinking i was picking on your professor(s) because you're too dumb to realize I was clearly pointing out the flaws of your irrelevant ramblings.

But that's Michchamp - if you can't change the subject or move the goal post, just dismiss it off hand. What's next, are you going to accuse me of being racist for disagreeing w/ Mr. Kerwin (even though it's your misunderstanding of economics and not necessarily Mr. Kerwin I'm disagreeing with)?
 
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sure there is profit - that's why businesses exist right? But however much there is, why would you just arbitrarily shift it to labor?

For the same reason we subsidize other critical industries. Because natural market forces would have us outsource things of strategic importance in the event that we cannot rely on our trade partners to too high a degree.

We are at or are nearing a point where we can provide for the needs of all of our citizens with less than the full labor supply. Go through your econ 101 logic and figure out what happens to a society at that point.
 
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For the same reason we subsidize other critical industries. Because natural market forces would have us outsource things of strategic importance in the event that we cannot rely on our trade partners to too high a degree.

We are at or are nearing a point where we can provide for the needs of all of our citizens with less than the full labor supply. Go through your econ 101 logic and figure out what happens to a society at that point.

We both know artificially high wages are not "natural market forces." Also, artificially hig wages are not a subsidy and they act more like a tax than a subsidy. All you have to do is look at the history of American labor and see what "subsidizing" labor has done for the American worker in the last 50+ years. Or is it your contention that above market, non-competitive labor costs protected American jobs and wasn't at least a big part of what accelerated the death of American industrial jobs and American industry in general?

And really, which critical industries have we subsidized so effectively? Energy? Agriculture? How well has that worked out for the American consumer and/or worker? There may be some value in terms of security but in purely economic terms, they're always harmful on some level - often to the detriment of workers/consumers.
 
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For the same reason we subsidize other critical industries. Because natural market forces would have us outsource things of strategic importance in the event that we cannot rely on our trade partners to too high a degree.

We are at or are nearing a point where we can provide for the needs of all of our citizens with less than the full labor supply. Go through your econ 101 logic and figure out what happens to a society at that point.

you call out the Pinkerton's and the national guard to machine gun anyone who complains, including women and children. hey, it's their fault they're too lazy to outrun bullets. they should've gone to MSU and gotten jobs on Wall Street like spartanmack, who was born a poor street urchin and worked his way up to become a titan of industry...
 
you call out the Pinkerton's and the national guard to machine gun anyone who complains, including women and children. hey, it's their fault they're too lazy to outrun bullets. they should've gone to MSU and gotten jobs on Wall Street like spartanmack, who was born a poor street urchin and worked his way up to become a titan of industry...

Yeah, so much unlike your experience - a real life Navin R Johnson, born a poor black child who with the assistance of the federal government was able to take on a racist society, hell bent on ensuring your failure. You took 'em on and rose above thanks only to government cheese and subsidized tuition to become a self-loathing white liberal douchebag lawyer. You are so weak and pathetic.
 
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Yeah, so much unlike your experience - a real life Navin R Johnson, born a poor black child who with the assistance of the federal government was able to take on a racist society, hell bent on ensuring your failure. You took 'em on and rose above thanks only to government cheese and subsidized tuition to become a self-loathing white liberal douchebag lawyer. You are so weak and pathetic.

I don't see how I'm being hypocritical here. unlike you, I've consistently argued for government to take the measures necessary to ensure all Americans have the same opportunities for success. If that means taxing businesses more to subsidize education and medicare in Detroit, or raising the minimum wage then so be it. I will feel for the Ford Family when they're forced to sell a few summer cottages.
 
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I don't see how I'm being hypocritical here. unlike you, I've consistently argued for government to take the measures necessary to ensure all Americans have the same opportunities for success. If that means taxing businesses more to subsidize education and medicare in Detroit, or raising the minimum wage then so be it. I will feel for the Ford Family when they're forced to sell a few summer cottages.

You're a hypocrite because you say my opinions about social policy are irrelevant because i didn't grow up in poverty or as an otherwise disadvantaged minority. Neither did/are you but somehow your opinions aren't automatically disqualified because you think the failed policies you support are better for those who do/are. It's the same thing as saying men don't have uteri so their opinions on abortion don't count - unless they are for it. Liking Public Enemy and feeling like you're doing good does not validate your misguided beliefs. You're being a hypocrite.

By the way, what have I been inconsistent about or are you just saying "unlike you" for the simple fact that I haven't once argued for more of the government's failed policies that only perpetuate the cycle of poverty?
 
...

By the way, what have I been inconsistent about or are you just saying "unlike you" for the simple fact that I haven't once argued for more of the government's failed policies that only perpetuate the cycle of poverty?

I don't agree that those policies have failed - except to the extent they have been under-funded, or occasionally been mismanaged, and I don't agree that they perpetuate the cycle of poverty.
 
We both know artificially high wages are not "natural market forces." Also, artificially hig wages are not a subsidy and they act more like a tax than a subsidy. All you have to do is look at the history of American labor and see what "subsidizing" labor has done for the American worker in the last 50+ years. Or is it your contention that above market, non-competitive labor costs protected American jobs and wasn't at least a big part of what accelerated the death of American industrial jobs and American industry in general?

And really, which critical industries have we subsidized so effectively? Energy? Agriculture? How well has that worked out for the American consumer and/or worker? There may be some value in terms of security but in purely economic terms, they're always harmful on some level - often to the detriment of workers/consumers.

There are lots of 'unnatural' things we do. I wasn't saying otherwise, I was pointing out that we intervene all the time. Minimum wage is just another way we do it. ...and to complain that there are inefficiencies or that they are always harmful on some level is far too simple an argument to throw at everything. There are many ways we can stray from ideals and any intervention yields inefficiencies, so what? We should never intervene in anything? You get inefficiency through too much non-intervention or intervention. Monopolies are the econ 101 textbook example. Free markets are great, but it takes a lot of regulation to maintain a free market.

edit: ...and our energy, agricultural, and military industries are world wonders...for better or worse.
 
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I don't agree that those policies have failed - except to the extent they have been under-funded, or occasionally been mismanaged, and I don't agree that they perpetuate the cycle of poverty.

I know you don't and no amount of evidence will ever convince you otherwise but that just means you disagree, it says nothing about me being inconsistent, as you implied.
 
There are lots of 'unnatural' things we do. I wasn't saying otherwise, I was pointing out that we intervene all the time. Minimum wage is just another way we do it. ...and to complain that there are inefficiencies or that they are always harmful on some level is far too simple an argument to throw at everything. There are many ways we can stray from ideals and any intervention yields inefficiencies, so what? We should never intervene in anything? You get inefficiency through too much non-intervention or intervention. Monopolies are the econ 101 textbook example. Free markets are great, but it takes a lot of regulation to maintain a free market.

edit: ...and our energy, agricultural, and military industries are world wonders...for better or worse.

You're kind of michchamping here. I never said there should be no regulation. Also, saying that intervention is always harmful on some level is a statement of fact but I did also acknowledge the security value to protecting certain industries. Sometimes those benefits outweigh the harm, like in the case of breaking up monopolies (or regulating them as in the case of utilities). You seem to be projecting (michchamping) my beliefs about the minimum wage's harm being greater than the benefit to any and all interventions. With all due respect, you clearly don't have enough information to make that generalization.

And yes, our energy and agricultural and military industries are world wonders (although the aussies and certain european countries probably disagree on the ag one) but their products are also probably more expensive than they need to be - you can add our amazing University system to that list.
 
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You're kind of michchamping here. I never said there should be no regulation. Also, saying that intervention is always harmful on some level is a statement of fact but I did also acknowledge the security value to protecting certain industries. Sometimes those benefits outweigh the harm, like in the case of breaking up monopolies (or regulating them as in the case of utilities). You seem to be projecting (michchamping) my beliefs about the minimum wage's harm being greater than the benefit to any and all interventions. With all due respect, you clearly don't have enough information to make that generalization.

And yes, our energy and agricultural and military industries are world wonders (although the aussies and certain european countries probably disagree on the ag one) but their products are also probably more expensive than they need to be - you can add our amazing University system to that list.

You might call it Michchamping, but your tone, it seems to me, has moved significantly from intervention invariably creating inefficiencies to something that recognizes the need for balance and positions about minimum wage being just beliefs that we don't have sufficient information to speak with complete authority on.
 
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You might call it Michchamping, but your tone, it seems to me, has moved significantly from intervention invariably creating inefficiencies to something that recognizes the need for balance and positions about minimum wage being just beliefs that we don't have sufficient information to speak with complete authority on.

Looking back, I feel like I've pretty much stayed on point keeping this about the minimum wage, and my tone has been respectful (at least in my responses to your comments) and consistent. I didn't say or mean to imply that my position on the MW was just my belief therefore your comments don't matter. The point about you not having enough information was about you projecting my min wage comments onto all other forms of intervention - I haven't commented enough on other forms for you to make that assumption. Intervention does invariably creates inefficiencies. That may have been a little too open-ended but that doesn't mean I think the harm > benefit in all cases.
 
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Looking back, I feel like I've pretty much stayed on point keeping this about the minimum wage, and my tone has been respectful (at least in my responses to your comments) and consistent. I didn't say or mean to imply that my position on the MW was just my belief therefore your comments don't matter. The point about you not having enough information was about you projecting my min wage comments onto all other forms of intervention - I haven't commented enough on other forms for you to make that assumption. Intervention does invariably creates inefficiencies. That may have been a little too open-ended but that doesn't mean I think the harm > benefit in all cases.

OK. Well then, just with regard to minimum wage, how would we know when the harm > the benefit? It's a tough question. But when employed people still require government assistance, I think that's hiding a form of labor subsidy and doing it in a way that we as a people haven't decided to do through our elected representatives.
 
OK. Well then, just with regard to minimum wage, how would we know when the harm > the benefit? It's a tough question. But when employed people still require government assistance, I think that's hiding a form of labor subsidy and doing it in a way that we as a people haven't decided to do through our elected representatives.

Given the number of inputs that go into an economy, it's nearly impossible to isolate any one input and measure it's effect. Clearly, we have sustained unemployment among low-skilled/experience workers - i'm not sure that you can isolate the impact of the minimum wage vs. other factors or the weak economy in general but I suspect it's real. Particularly in this economy, the idea that raising the min wage won't lead to more low-skilled wage earners being laid off and fewer unemployed finding work, let alone that it will lead to more employment, not less is preposterous. I think some of the best examples are the economic devastation wrought on low-skilled workers who have been victimized by so-called "living wage" or "fair trade" policies (like the farm workers who handle much of the food we import). These multinationals don't just say, "ok farmer, we'll increase our budget and you have to pay everybody more, we need those bananas". Their budgets stay the same and fewer workers get paid the higher wage while others lose their jobs. It's such a bad policy w/ clearly negative affects that I refuse to buy products with the Fair Trade stamp because it's literally ruining people's livelihoods.
 
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Given the number of inputs that go into an economy, it's nearly impossible to isolate any one input and measure it's effect. Clearly, we have sustained unemployment among low-skilled/experience workers - i'm not sure that you can isolate the impact of the minimum wage vs. other factors or the weak economy in general but I suspect it's real. Particularly in this economy, the idea that raising the min wage won't lead to more low-skilled wage earners being laid off and fewer unemployed finding work, let alone that it will lead to more employment, not less is preposterous. I think some of the best examples are the economic devastation wrought on low-skilled workers who have been victimized by so-called "living wage" or "fair trade" policies (like the farm workers who handle much of the food we import). These multinationals don't just say, "ok farmer, we'll increase our budget and you have to pay everybody more, we need those bananas". Their budgets stay the same and fewer workers get paid the higher wage while others lose their jobs. It's such a bad policy w/ clearly negative affects that I refuse to buy products with the Fair Trade stamp because it's literally ruining people's livelihoods.

More jobs at minimum wage aren't going to help the economy or anyone's living condition anyway. If kids in school were getting those jobs, then yes, I'd say they're a good thing, but that ship has sailed. We'll stretch things out for a while yet...fake the numbers by putting more and more people on disability and such, but at some point, technological progress is going to force us to try something really different because this econ 101 approach isn't going to cut it.
 
.... I think some of the best examples are the economic devastation wrought on low-skilled workers who have been victimized by so-called "living wage" or "fair trade" policies (like the farm workers who handle much of the food we import). These multinationals don't just say, "ok farmer, we'll increase our budget and you have to pay everybody more, we need those bananas". Their budgets stay the same and fewer workers get paid the higher wage while others lose their jobs. It's such a bad policy w/ clearly negative affects that I refuse to buy products with the Fair Trade stamp because it's literally ruining people's livelihoods.

get real, "living wage" and fair trade policies are recent developments; wages have been stagnating and declining since the 1980's, and only a handful of jurisdictions in the country have even passed living wage ordinances. you're just reaching for something "liberal" to blame because you're a hack. at least you didn't try to blame "affirmative action" as well, though, that's probably just because you didn't think of it yet.

this article makes a lot more sense to me. the thesis:
... But while the mystery of what killed the great American jobs machine has yielded no shortage of debatable answers, one of the more compelling potential explanations has been conspicuously absent from the national conversation: monopolization. The word itself feels anachronistic, a relic from the age of the Rockefellers and Carnegies. But the fact that the term has faded from our daily discourse doesn’t mean the thing itself has vanished—in fact, the opposite is true. In nearly every sector of our economy, far fewer firms control far greater shares of their markets than they did a generation ago.

Indeed, in the years after officials in the Reagan administration radically altered how our government enforces our antimonopoly laws, the American economy underwent a truly revolutionary restructuring. Four great waves of mergers and acquisitions—in the mid-1980s, early ’90s, late ’90s, and between 2003 and 2007—transformed America’s industrial landscape at least as much as globalization. Over the same two decades, meanwhile, the spread of mega-retailers like Wal-Mart and Home Depot and agricultural behemoths like Smithfield and Tyson’s resulted in a more piecemeal approach to consolidation, through the destruction or displacement of countless independent family-owned businesses.
...
And don’t fool yourself that this process of monopolization affects only America’s working classes. What’s happened to down-market retail has happened to department stores as well. Think Macy’s competes with Bloomingdale’s? Think again. Both are units of a holding company called Macy’s Inc., which, under its old name, Federated, spent the last two decades rolling up control of such department store brand names as Marshall Field’s, Hecht’s, Broadway, and Bon March?. A generation ago, even most midsized cities in America could boast of multiple independent department stores. Today a single company controls roughly 800 outlets, in a chain that stretches from the Atlantic to the Pacific.​
It's clear that effects jobs... especially at the corporate level, where you now have one HQ, one HR dept., one marketing dept., etc. Of course, there's an argument you can make for efficiency, but that argument shouldn't outweigh the need to preserve competition in the market. When competition disappears, the entire argument for efficiency is bogus. there's no need for a monopoly to be efficient, in fact, they are inefficient in the market... charging higher prices, and producing fewer goods. Consumers and workers lose, AND the new monopoly can use their market power to influence government regulation, and through their weight around affecting other industries as well.

There's another article I've read about how lax FTC anti-trust regulations have become, and with fewer employers around due to consolidations across industries, there are fewer jobs in existence. I can't find it now, but I remember something like how during the Nixon administration, the FTC opposed a merger of two radio station owners because it would've given them something like 3% of the national market... and these days Clear Channel controls not only several entire local markets, but has like 1200 stations nationally.

it's clear what the 800 lb. gorilla is in the room when it comes to job & wage stagnation.
 
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We could fix this by treating companies more like people.

Biology demonstrates lots of things that work. I think aging and dying might be healthy things to mimic in our economy. When a company hits 50 years old, slap a 1% tax on all income. Then add another 1% tax each year until they die. I know you couldn't make it work. You'd just drive companies overseas or they'd transfer holdings to 'new' companies through other legal procedures. Too bad.
 
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