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Yes those were my words, the part where you put them in my mouth was when you applied them to a group I specifically said I was not talking about.


I guess to solve a lot of the misunderstandings in this thread, let me say I was talking about people who believe the opinions and laws of the Church and the Pope are set in stone and incontestable. Now if my use of the term "devout" to define them is contradictory to what your definition of "devout" is than that is likely where all our misunderstanding stems from.

The fact is I know plenty of people who go to church, receive communion, and all the things that generally define someone as a Catholic, but I don't consider devout because they don't agree or practice the churches doctrine pertaining to birth control. These are obviously not the people I was referring to when I said I felt they were a lost cause way back on like page 2 of this thread.

 

[KAWDUP]

Yes those were my words, the part where you put them in my mouth was when you applied them to a group I specifically said I was not talking about.


I guess to solve a lot of the misunderstandings in this thread, let me say I was talking about people who believe the opinions and laws of the Church and the Pope are set in stone and incontestable. Now if my use of the term "devout" to define them is contradictory to what your definition of "devout" is than that is likely where all our misunderstanding stems from.

The fact is I know plenty of people who go to church, receive communion, and all the things that generally define someone as a Catholic, but I don't consider devout because they don't agree or practice the churches doctrine pertaining to birth control. These are obviously not the people I was referring to when I said I felt they were a lost cause way back on like page 2 of this thread.

Ok I see the confusion.

You are saying that since I might differ from the current church doctrine on birth control - I am not part of "people who believe the opinions and laws of the Church and the Pope are set in stone and incontestable."

I think I was saying, that group, may preach one thing, but in reality, they too will discuss and challenge what the Pope says and what the current laws of the church are.

Those things that aren't part of the creed, are a moving target, and throughout history have changed rather dramatically - so they are really never written in stone.

Some small examples off the top of my head:
1) No meat on Fridays
2) Mass every day
3) Receiving Communion at every Mass
4) Not allowed to touch the Host
5) Eucharistic ministers
6) How one achieves Sainthood
A couple that are a bit older:
7) Masses in native languages
8) Required tithing

Some things that could change in our lifetime.
1) Acceptance of some forms of birth control (some that actually have a chance of working).
2) Priests allowed to marry (although there is still quite a bit of resistance to this outside of the United States).
3) Maybe even female Priests

I think my comments were directed at saying that believing in church doctrine and listening to the Pope on everything, with no changes or challenges in any way, defines a relatively small percentage of Catholics. This "stuff" changes with the times, albeit much slower than some would like.

Everything you say about Catholics who follow the laws they want, and are not very Christian, is true and this is not any good either. Maybe these are more of the "lost causes" you were talking about?

If I still got it wrong - I apologize. You can have the last word, you already know what I think.

 

[redandguilty]

Some things that could change in our lifetime.
1) Acceptance of some forms of birth control (some that actually have a chance of working).
2) Priests allowed to marry (although there is still quite a bit of resistance to this outside of the United States).
3) Maybe even female Priests

The path is long and the only progress the current Pope could realistically make would be to appoint (relatively) liberal Cardinals. Any of these changes would be a few Popes down the road. I doubt I'm telling you anything you don't already know though, you said lifetime, so I suspect we're in agreement.

 

[KAWDUP]

The path is long and the only progress the current Pope could realistically make would be to appoint (relatively) liberal Cardinals. Any of these changes would be a few Popes down the road. I doubt I'm telling you anything you don't already know though, you said lifetime, so I suspect we're in agreement.

Yep - this Pope will not move those forward, but it doesn't mean there aren't Bishops (maybe future Cardinals?) who support these things. They are certainly being discussed.