Compairing Kinsler with Infante

[michiganalex]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding/_/position/2b/order/true

PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS WAR
Ian Kinsler TEX 545 85 151 31 2 13 72 15 11 51 59 .277 .344 .413 .757 5.0
Omar Infante DET 453 54 144 24 3 10 51 5 2 20 44 .318 .345 .450 .795 2.4

 

[michiganalex]

not that kinsler is a bad player but how is he that much better then Infante?

 

[af1991]

That's not the question. So we break even from a positional standpoint. We got rid of Prince's anchor of a salary that would have negatively impacted our ability to negotiate favorable deals with the players we want to keep/attract in the future.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Even more than Fielder's contract is we got rid of a 1B that had that contract. Having Prince, Miggy, and Vmart was never a good idea. Get a 3B or LF, we have more options now. And if Miggy needs some rest, he can go to 1st or DH while Vmart is at 1st.

 

[greenbeerd13]

That's not the question. So we break even from a positional standpoint. We got rid of Prince's anchor of a salary that would have negatively impacted our ability to negotiate favorable deals with the players we want to keep/attract in the future.

These are great points, it also opens up a huge array of options at 1B, 3B, LF and DH.

 

[Thundercats]

We saved $76 million by simply trading a better than average first baseman for a better than average 2nd baseman, who are harder to come by. Now, there are possibilities of signing Choo or Ellsbury and also extending Cabrera. This is a huge win for the Tigers.. can't understand why people think this is about the players exchanged.

 

[Thundercats]

I seriously wish we could call Arizona about Goldschmidt, but that's a pipe dream anyway. He's a 1B/LF. I would trade Scherzer and Jackson for him in a heartbeat.

 

[turok]

Thinking about all of the holes yet needing to be plugged makes me wonder about how close this ballclub will come to the Luxtax threshold, I mean, BP, bench, LF maybe CF & SS. (since DD can't publicly commit to Iglesias FT) Potentially extending Max and Miggy? Some of this might be mitgated by trades, but a couple or few of the players that the Tigers trade for may be even more expensive. If VMart will play 1B in a platoon. who platoons with him? Castellanos? Kelly? ...dlol.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I don't understand how he can't publicly commit to Iglesias? What's wrong with a great defensive SS?

 

[papacrick]

If they won't play Iglesias then that Garica trade pisses me off even more. Guy looks like a sure fire future all star that is going to torch us for years playing in the division while we got a guy whose great defense isn't enough to overcome his incredibly weak bat. Not a good look no matter which way you slice it. May as well re-sign Peralta then

 

[kingofdetroit57]

Why does anybody think Iglesias won't be the FT SS here? Does DD really need to come right out and say it at this point?

 

[jared]

Even more than Fielder's contract is we got rid of a 1B that had that contract. Having Prince, Miggy, and Vmart was never a good idea. Get a 3B or LF, we have more options now. And if Miggy needs some rest, he can go to 1st or DH while Vmart is at 1st.

I agree 100& Mitch.

The value of the Tigers ridding themselves of Prince is different than another club doing the same thing because of the other similar players on our roster. Prince's value to the Tigers is mitigated, in my opinion, by the fact the Cabrera and VMart are both DH types who can play first base. We had three of the same type of thing. (not offensively, but positionally) Having one less non athletic DH type on the team means we can try to sign a player who doesn't fit those characteristics. You can't really put a price tag on that, it doesn't really figure into the dollar amount that is being discussed (to death) regarding the Kinsler trade.

Last year the Tigers had Miggy, Vmart, Prince and Peralta, all of whom were defensive liabilities and horrible on the base paths. We appear to be cutting that number to two, provided we sign or promote players who don't fit that description. I couldn't be happier.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Why does anybody think Iglesias won't be the FT SS here? Does DD really need to come right out and say it at this point?

I guess not and with a new staff it probably makes sense for DD to be neutral. I can't imagine he won't be the starting SS.

 

[kingofdetroit57]

I guess not and with a new staff it probably makes sense for DD to be neutral. I can't imagine he won't be the starting SS.

Do we even have an alternative on the roster right now? I think Peralta and Santiago were both FAs and neither was likely to return. I believe it's Iggy, then nothing else. I'd guess that Perez is our likely back up middle infielder unless we sign someone else.

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

To answer the original question - Kinsler is better than Omar at the plate and in the field. He had a higher oWAR because he hit better in higher leverage situations and added value with his baserunning. Ironically, this is despite the fact that Omar had his BEST offensive season in his career (a feat that is likely to regress to the mean going forward).

Further, Omar is not a great defender. He provided slightly negative defensive value even last year. Kinsler averages over 1 win from defense every year, and has only been negative once in his career. By WAR, Kinsler was more than twice as valuable as Omar, and significantly more valuable in his career.

The reports of Kinsler's decline are also greatly exaggerated. He has only had two seasons where he was significantly better at the plate, and two other seasons where he was better at all in the field. The reports of his decline had more to do with a down 2012, since 2013 was right in line with his career of high quality play.

 

[tomdalton22]

To answer the original question - Kinsler is better than Omar at the plate and in the field. He had a higher oWAR because he hit better in higher leverage situations and added value with his baserunning. Ironically, this is despite the fact that Omar had his BEST offensive season in his career (a feat that is likely to regress to the mean going forward).

Further, Omar is not a great defender. He provided slightly negative defensive value even last year. Kinsler averages over 1 win from defense every year, and has only been negative once in his career. By WAR, Kinsler was more than twice as valuable as Omar, and significantly more valuable in his career.

The reports of Kinsler's decline are also greatly exaggerated. He has only had two seasons where he was significantly better at the plate, and two other seasons where he was better at all in the field. The reports of his decline had more to do with a down 2012, since 2013 was right in line with his career of high quality play.

Kinsler is a better offensive player IMO but he did get the benifit of playing 1/2 of his games in a hitter's park.

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

Kinsler is a better offensive player IMO but he did get the benifit of playing 1/2 of his games in a hitter's park.

Comerica IS a hitters park. We had the third most hitter friendly park in the league last year, compared to the Rangers at 17th. Overall the Rangers park normally ranks only a few slots ahead of Comerica year to year, and that's obviously going to be skewed by the fact that the Rangers had great offensive players up until last year - same with Comerica. I don't think there's enough evidence to say Kinsler will fair particularly worse (or at all) playing here.

Edit: Comerica has been top 10 in adjusted runs for the past 3 years.

 

[Rebbiv]

Comerica IS a hitters park. We had the third most hitter friendly park in the league last year, compared to the Rangers at 17th. Overall the Rangers park normally ranks only a few slots ahead of Comerica year to year, and that's obviously going to be skewed by the fact that the Rangers had great offensive players up until last year - same with Comerica. I don't think there's enough evidence to say Kinsler will fair particularly worse (or at all) playing here.

Edit: Comerica has been top 10 in adjusted runs for the past 3 years.

Comerica is park neutral. Arlington is a hitter's park.

http://www.billjamesonline.com/the_best_and_worst_hitters_parks/

 

[byco42]

Comerica IS a hitters park. We had the third most hitter friendly park in the league last year, compared to the Rangers at 17th. Overall the Rangers park normally ranks only a few slots ahead of Comerica year to year, and that's obviously going to be skewed by the fact that the Rangers had great offensive players up until last year - same with Comerica. I don't think there's enough evidence to say Kinsler will fair particularly worse (or at all) playing here.

Edit: Comerica has been top 10 in adjusted runs for the past 3 years.

This Comerica career split of Kinsler's is not encouraging:
162 PA AVG .200 OBP .298 SLG. 329 OPS .627

Career home: AVG .304 OBP .387 SLG .511 OPS .898

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

Comerica is park neutral. Arlington is a hitter's park.

http://www.billjamesonline.com/the_best_and_worst_hitters_parks/

Comerica is neutral because of the sample taken. We were 17th in 2010 and 9th in 2011 and 2012 (when that article was written).

If you did the same thing with the Rangers, but use the last three years instead of 2010-2012, you would see a similar shift. The Rangers park would have been 1st, 4th, then 17th for hitters, placing them closer to the middle than the top.

Comerica was 9th, 9th, and 3rd the last three years, which using that same type of study would push Comerica to right around the same overall level.

I am not completely disagreeing that the Rangers have a slightly better ballpark for hitters, but I think the difference is exaggerated. Park factors outside of huge geographical or dimensional advantages (Coors field, Safeco) are heavily skewed by the home team. The Rangers have developed and paid big bucks for big bats for a while now, and that's going to be reflected in their park factors. Comerica was 3rd overall this year because we were trotting out an elite offense (and even in spite of the fact that most of our pitchers pitched better at home).

Our pitching overall was better on the road, implying it's easier to get hits at Comerica.