Confederate monuments

[Michchamp]

LOL, James Woods is the worst person on twitter. what a lunatic.

 

[tomdalton22]

more racist Confederate monuments - all of which were erected well after the Civil War during the Jim Crow era or during the 1960's fights against Civil Rights and integration - which belies the argument they are war graves and/or cultural symbols - coming down following the racial violence caused by neo-nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville.

link, and cities across the South are pledging to remove them. Baltimore, New Orleans (in progress), Atlanta.

tear them all down, melt them into new liberty bells celebrating those who gave their lives to preserve our nation, eliminate the evil of slavery, and stamp out those who committed treason in defense of slavery.

Did You know that Arlington National Cemetary was built on land seized from Robert E. Lee's estate and dedicated as a burial ground for Union troops who died fighting that treasonous slave owner? that was a powerful and poignant gesture. a lot more of that should've been done after the war.

Did you know that contrary to popular opinion, Lee was not a reluctant slave owner and gentleman? nor were his views on slavery progressive in any way. read this... and this. and this. about all you can say in his defense is he was not the worst slave owner.

maybe we should melt the Statue of liberty too.

 

[Gulo Blue]

maybe we should melt the Statue of liberty too.

What?

If you have you explain the convoluted reason somebody's argument includes some ridiculous interpretation, you're probably misreading what they said.

 

[Gulo Blue]

"Man, this guy says we can't trust Bill Cosby and he taught Vanessa that underage drinking was bad on the Cosby show...so I'm going to let my kids drink all they want, right? I mean, the guy said you can't trust Cosby, so he must be in favor of underage drinking."

(By doing what I'm picking on with an extreme example, I'm actually doing the thing I'm picking on...get it? Hypocrisy!)

 

[deathroh]

maybe we should melt the Statue of liberty too.

Quick, someone tell James Woods to post a picture of it so we can see it one more time.

 

[tomdalton22]

What?

If you have you explain the convoluted reason somebody's argument includes some ridiculous interpretation, you're probably misreading what they said.

This country was founded by slaughtering the inhabitants, taking all of their land and then set up monuments of "Liberty" on it? Well, we did give them some casinos...so I guess it's ok.

 

[Gulo Blue]

This country was founded by slaughtering the inhabitants, taking all of their land and then set up monuments of "Liberty" on it? Well, we did give them some casinos...so I guess it's ok.

So...you're trying to explain your convoluted reason?

Went even more broad than I expected.

 

[tinselwolverine]

I'd like to add: also, no good is ever going to come from being a racist. and adults who make the decision to become white supremacists and go stand publicly side-by-side with other white supremacists are not victims when people identify them and criticise them for their publicly espoused beliefs.

Right.


Notice my advisement was to apply to "everybody who is sane."

 

[Michchamp]

Quick, someone tell James Woods to post a picture of it so we can see it one more time.

AHAHHAHAHAHAH!

I can't believe he posted that! he is James Woods

 

[TheVictors]

I never had really encountered racism until we moved Up North and went from being one of two white families on a block in Evanston, IL to the "great white north." Even at that age, I saw that the attitude came from complete and total ignorance, combined with some form of taught "Detroit-based" view of Blacks. There were literally two Black students in our HS at one point; a brother and sister and adopted by a white family (RIP Mike, he passed away this past year). People up there simply were afraid of and mocking what they didn't know and it almost came to blows in my 10th grade Trig class when Dave M. went on about some trip to Chicago and all the "homeless nigger drug addicts they had to step over."

Pales by comparison to what we're seeing these days and no coincidence that with the internet, the white supremacy/nazi movement has grown.

 

[tomdalton22]

I never had really encountered racism until we moved Up North and went from being one of two white families on a block in Evanston, IL to the "great white north." Even at that age, I saw that the attitude came from complete and total ignorance, combined with some form of taught "Detroit-based" view of Blacks. There were literally two Black students in our HS at one point; a brother and sister and adopted by a white family (RIP Mike, he passed away this past year). People up there simply were afraid of and mocking what they didn't know and it almost came to blows in my 10th grade Trig class when Dave M. went on about some trip to Chicago and all the "homeless nigger drug addicts they had to step over."

Pales by comparison to what we're seeing these days and no coincidence that with the internet, the white supremacy/nazi movement has grown.

you probably wouldn't be as welcome in that neighborhood today as you were when you were a kid. Unfortunately, the hate goes both ways.

 

[tomdalton22]

So...you're trying to explain your convoluted reason?

Went even more broad than I expected.

It was just a sarcastic comment about the hypocrisy

 

[TheVictors]

you probably wouldn't be as welcome in that neighborhood today as you were when you were a kid. Unfortunately, the hate goes both ways.

perhaps, but more likely is that the old neighborhood has become gentrified and no longer a Black block/area in Evanston. Here in Denver we live in the historically Black neighborhood of Park Hill (Chauncey!) where the silhouette of MLK is on the signs adjacent to the entry points of the neighborhood. As time has gone on, it's become increasingly white and then there is the new "planned community" of Stapleton that is largely white, upper-middle class transplants to Colorado, wholly unaware of the history of the area. They take to Nextdoor and Facebook with horror stories of unlocked bikes disappearing from the porch and open garages being burglarized.

In this case, there is very much crime of retribution taking place - pissed off and displaced minorities going into "Pleasantville" and causing damage and crime. We in Park Hill get the occasional stuff (my car was tossed just last night in fact, all my change is gone but not my iPhone charger or other items of "value"), but it's the folks in Stapleton bearing the brunt of the frustration.

Recently posted in the neighborhood - 2BR/1.5BA house (1800 sq ft) renting for $3500/month!!


Now who the hell are you reaching out to at $45,000/yr in rent?!

 

[tomdalton22]

perhaps, but more likely is that the old neighborhood has become gentrified and no longer a Black block/area in Evanston. Here in Denver we live in the historically Black neighborhood of Park Hill (Chauncey!) where the silhouette of MLK is on the signs adjacent to the entry points of the neighborhood. As time has gone on, it's become increasingly white and then there is the new "planned community" of Stapleton that is largely white, upper-middle class transplants to Colorado, wholly unaware of the history of the area. They take to Nextdoor and Facebook with horror stories of unlocked bikes disappearing from the porch and open garages being burglarized.

In this case, there is very much crime of retribution taking place - pissed off and displaced minorities going into "Pleasantville" and causing damage and crime. We in Park Hill get the occasional stuff (my car was tossed just last night in fact, all my change is gone but not my iPhone charger or other items of "value"), but it's the folks in Stapleton bearing the brunt of the frustration.

Recently posted in the neighborhood - 2BR/1.5BA house (1800 sq ft) renting for $3500/month!!


Now who the hell are you reaching out to at $45,000/yr in rent?!

$3500 per month for a 2 BR? What does a house like that go for out there....$450K?

 

[Michchamp]

you probably wouldn't be as welcome in that neighborhood today as you were when you were a kid. Unfortunately, the hate goes both ways.

Well, sure. there are hate crimes committed by blacks against white... the question is whether the two are comparable in the big picture. A couple years ago, the Chicago Reader had an article about a study that largely debunked that myth.

I couldn't find it, and don't have time right now, but the study found that as a white person, you were less likely to be the victim of a crime than a black person, even within a black neighborhood. most violent crime was related to the drug trade (ie it involved gangs)and the locals knew that attacking a white person would make the news and bring a disproportionate police response.

that's not to say it doesn't happen, but of course mentioning it as though it's in any way comparable to the harm and violence whites commit against blacks is a fallacy.

here's one article... FBI hate crime statistics for 2013: "Of the 5,814 known offenders, 52.4 percent were white while 24.3 percent were black, the report shows. Race was unknown for 14.8 percent of the offenders."

"both sides have a problem here" ... Trump would say. Well, one side has a much worse problem...

 

[tomdalton22]

Well, sure. there are hate crimes committed by blacks against white... the question is whether the two are comparable in the big picture. A couple years ago, the Chicago Reader had an article about a study that largely debunked that myth.

I couldn't find it, and don't have time right now, but the study found that as a white person, you were less likely to be the victim of a crime than a black person, even within a black neighborhood. most violent crime was related to the drug trade (ie it involved gangs)and the locals knew that attacking a white person would make the news and bring a disproportionate police response.

that's not to say it doesn't happen, but of course mentioning it as though it's in any way comparable to the harm and violence whites commit against blacks is a fallacy.

here's one article... FBI hate crime statistics for 2013: "Of the 5,814 known offenders, 52.4 percent were white while 24.3 percent were black, the report shows. Race was unknown for 14.8 percent of the offenders."

"both sides have a problem here" ... Trump would say. Well, one side has a much worse problem...

hate crimes or crimes in general?

 

[Spartanmack]

I never had really encountered racism until we moved Up North and went from being one of two white families on a block in Evanston, IL to the "great white north." Even at that age, I saw that the attitude came from complete and total ignorance, combined with some form of taught "Detroit-based" view of Blacks. There were literally two Black students in our HS at one point; a brother and sister and adopted by a white family (RIP Mike, he passed away this past year). People up there simply were afraid of and mocking what they didn't know and it almost came to blows in my 10th grade Trig class when Dave M. went on about some trip to Chicago and all the "homeless nigger drug addicts they had to step over."

Pales by comparison to what we're seeing these days and no coincidence that with the internet, the white supremacy/nazi movement has grown.

has it grown? I've been looking for information on crowd size for both/either side of the protest but nobody seems to be publishing any numbers. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center (which i suspect exaggerates these numbers, but i'll take them at face value) there are between 5k and 8k KKK members in America - that's .000024% of the population. According to wikipedia, that's down from as many as 6mm or 15% of the population at their peak in the mid 1920s. Estimates have them around 30k in the 1940s. There are other groups besides the KKK but even if you assume the total is 10x the KKK, that's .00024% of the population. And if they're actually growing, they would need to quadruple in size to get to .1% of the population. The reality is these people are a miniscule fringe movement and they're probably not growing to meaningful numbers. They don't really matter and if not for fascist movements like antifa, anti-white racism from leftist racist organizations and excuse making for Democrats running the worst candidate for President ever, we wouldn't even hear about them. It seems more like a predictable response to the increase in divisive identity politics that's bringing the cockroaches into the daylight than an actual increase in white supremacy.

 

[Michchamp]

...They take to Nextdoor and Facebook with horror stories of unlocked bikes disappearing from the porch and open garages being burglarized.

...

that's the other thing white people do (not white people like me, more like Tom D, and James Woods): they conflate property crime with violence.

all our family stories about why various people fled Detroit for the suburbs are hilariously more smoke than fire. "the neighborhood got too dangerous" meant "someone broke into the garage one time when we weren't home and took our used lawnmower that was worth $10"

oop... better sell the house and run away like a scared rabbit. next time they might take the electric hedge clippers. and those cost $15 to replace

also, personal pet peeve: reading comments on news stories, it's crazy how many people believe deadly force & vigilantism is justified by property theft... some kids stole your bike or spray painted your garage? God damn, if only you had been there with your Glock...

 

[Spartanmack]

Well, sure. there are hate crimes committed by blacks against white... the question is whether the two are comparable in the big picture. A couple years ago, the Chicago Reader had an article about a study that largely debunked that myth.

I couldn't find it, and don't have time right now, but the study found that as a white person, you were less likely to be the victim of a crime than a black person, even within a black neighborhood. most violent crime was related to the drug trade (ie it involved gangs)and the locals knew that attacking a white person would make the news and bring a disproportionate police response.

that's not to say it doesn't happen, but of course mentioning it as though it's in any way comparable to the harm and violence whites commit against blacks is a fallacy.

here's one article... FBI hate crime statistics for 2013: "Of the 5,814 known offenders, 52.4 percent were white while 24.3 percent were black, the report shows. Race was unknown for 14.8 percent of the offenders."

"both sides have a problem here" ... Trump would say. Well, one side has a much worse problem...

assuming those are reliable numbers, whites make up 62% of the population and commit 52% of hate crimes while blacks account for 13.3% but account for 24.3% of hate crimes, so one group is over represented in those stats while the other is under represented, you just have it backwards.

 

[Michchamp]

hate crimes or crimes in general?

the article i mentioned was about both: as a white you were safer in black neighborhoods from both. I also cited the hate crime study given the context of our discussion, when you claimed he wouldn't be safer in his old neighborhood because "hate goes both ways"