DNC has tried and failed to serve Kushner collusion lawsuit papers since April

[tinselwolverine]

There was a case in the news where a guy's mother had died and he kept living in the apartment under her name for years. he got caught when he dressed up like an old lady and went to the social security office to try to keep her soc security payments going. Apparently, he didn't think to shave his beard.

Rent stabilization is different - I lived in a rent stabilized building my first 3 or 4 years. In those cases, rents are set at market prices when the units turnover and increases are limited to a certain percentage. When I lived there, rents in the city went up by less than the allowable increases (it was the 3 years after 9/11) but I had to negotiate with the landlord each year otherwise they would have just automatically increased the rates by the maximum allowable amount.

The guy should have shaved and dressed as a sexy (or slutty) kitten.

Your rent stabilization description sounds to me like what is called "rent control" as I know it.

Obviously there are always going to be people who try to game the system, going from rent control scammers up to the Clintons and Trumps of the world.

 

[Spartanmack]

What evidence is there then?
Telling me I can't say "every time you get rid of price controls, the end result will be higher rents across the board" (which I didn't) isn't evidence.

OK, even in this one instance, you can't say getting rid of price controls resulted in higher rents because several other factors contributed to those price increases. In fact, it's highly likely that market price rents would have been driven even higher if the supply of market price units continued to be held artificially low.

 

[Spartanmack]

The guy should have shaved and dressed as a sexy (or slutty) kitten.

Your rent stabilization description sounds to me like what is called "rent control" as I know it.

Obviously there are always going to be people who try to game the system, going from rent control scammers up to the Clintons and Trumps of the world.

yes, there are always going to be scammers particularly when you have bad regulations that create such perverse incentives and inefficient resource allocation. I'm not by any means saying the scammers are the main problem, they're more of a byproduct of the problem.

 

[Gulo Blue]

OK, even in this one instance, you can't say getting rid of price controls resulted in higher rents because several other factors contributed to those price increases. In fact, it's highly likely that market price rents would have been driven even higher if the supply of market price units continued to be held artificially low.

That's evidence? You think something is highly likely?

 

[Spartanmack]

That's evidence? You think something is highly likely?

It's the same evidence you're using. I'm merely explaining that you can't draw the conclusions you've drawn from it because you can't isolate the effect of getting rid of rent control. Maybe you think it's highly likely that it's due to getting rid of rent control but you don't know, do you?

 

[tinselwolverine]

The housing supply in NYC is finite. it's pretty hard to commute to Manhattan from central Illinois or even Ohio for that matter.

Pretty sure a person doesn't have to go that far, but yeah, it's hard to imagine building a lot more housing in Manhattan.

I'm not going to link to all the development projects I've found online going on currently on Long Island, Staten Island, New Jersey, Connecticut and near upstate New York but I'm finding numerous examples; those are a lot more commutable than Illinois or even Ohio.

 

[Spartanmack]

Pretty sure a person doesn't have to go that far, but yeah, it's hard to imagine building a lot more housing in Manhattan.

I'm not going to link to all the development projects I've found online going on currently on Long Island, Staten Island, New Jersey, Connecticut and near upstate New York but I'm finding numerous examples; those are a lot more commutable than Illinois or even Ohio.

The place is booming - there were several massive projects in manhattan the 8+ years I lived there. Most of them involved knocking buildings down so they weren't all new housing but they're trying to build every square inch they can find.

 

[tinselwolverine]

There are, and Kushner is being investigated for allegedly violating those restrictions. That's how we got in this topic.

And MichChamp linked to an article where apparently Trump tried to do the same thing and failed.

No investor has a gun to their head to purchase a rent controlled building.

In post #31 I referred to a web search I did that yielded links to a number of reports by people claiming to be real estate investors on rent control investments.

They were all agnostic on the political or societal pros and cons of rent control itself; but they cited instead the pros and cons of rent control properties investments, and the underlying reasons that would make one rent control investment better than another one.

I ain't fond of scammers of any kind, whether it's a dude dressed as an old lady trying to cash his dead mother's social security check, or Kushner trying to change the rules after the fact, having known full what the rules were and have been going in.

 

[Gulo Blue]

It's the same evidence you're using. I'm merely explaining that you can't draw the conclusions you've drawn from it because you can't isolate the effect of getting rid of rent control. Maybe you think it's highly likely that it's due to getting rid of rent control but you don't know, do you?

You're correct in that I don't know. That's why I asked for an example a couple times. I don't know that what you are claiming would happen has ever happened. I know a counter-example exists where the opposite happened. If the counter-example was some weird outlier, you'd think where would be some explanation why it was an outlier or examples of things going the other way.

 

[Spartanmack]

And MichChamp linked to an article where apparently Trump tried to do the same thing and failed.

No investor has a gun to their head to purchase a rent controlled building.

In post #31 I referred to a web search I did that yielded links to a number of reports by people claiming to be real estate investors on rent control investments.

They were all agnostic on the political or societal pros and cons of rent control itself; but they cited instead the pros and cons of rent control properties investments, and the underlying reasons that would make one rent control investment better than another one.

I ain't fond of scammers of any kind, whether it's a dude dressed as an old lady trying to cash his dead mother's social security check, or Kushner trying to change the rules after the fact, having known full what the rules were and have been going in.

I'm not fond of scammers of any kind either. It's probably clear to most reasonable people, but I'm sure turd thinks I'm defending Trump or Kushner or developers in general. I've already stated there's more than one bad guy in all these instances. My opposition is to the regulation and the environment of corruption it creates - there are sleazy people on all sides of the trade (politicians, developers/investors and consumers). My belief is that more bad regulation will only feed the leviathan and we'll just get more of the same.

 

[Spartanmack]

You're correct in that I don't know. That's why I asked for an example a couple times. I don't know that what you are claiming would happen has ever happened. I know a counter-example exists where the opposite happened. If the counter-example was some weird outlier, you'd think where would be some explanation why it was an outlier or examples of things going the other way.

I don't have an example, but neither do you - at least you don't have an example that shows that getting rid of price controls causes prices to increase. It's not incumbent on me to disprove something you can't prove.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I don't have an example, but neither do you - at least you don't have an example that shows that getting rid of price controls causes prices to increase. It's not incumbent on me to disprove something you can't prove.

Why would you say I don't have an example? I do. Cambridge, Mass.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Why would you say I don't have an example? I do. Cambridge, Mass.

Did you post a link about this before? If you did would you referred me to the post number that you made the link in or repost the link?

Reason is I want to see if anyone correlated The rise in overall rental prices to the rise of rental prices to the elimination of rent control, who was it who made that claim and what was the rationale.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Did you post a link about this before? If you did would you referred me to the post number that you made the link in or repost the link?

Reason is I want to see if anyone correlated The rise in overall rental prices to the rise of rental prices to the elimination of rent control, who was it who made that claim and what was the rationale.

I didn't post a link or have a specific reference in mind, let me google...

https://economics.mit.edu/files/9760

These guys look at a few things, one of which is proximity to formerly controlled rental units vs valuations. Just considering properties that were never rent controlled, the ones that were closer (within 0.2 miles) to formerly rent controlled properties increased in price more than places that were father from formerly rent controlled properties. Doesn't matter if you control for age, lot size, or number of bedrooms and bathrooms.

I get there's a difference between rent and valuation, but I like this method.

And it makes sense, right? Rich people want to live around other rich people. If you raise the rents on all the cheapest places, the entire area becomes attractive to a wealthier set of potential customers.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Thanks. I?m out and about now, I?ll have a look at it when I get back in. I

 

[Spartanmack]

we're starting to go in circles here. It's not clear in your example that the rise in overall rates was due to getting rid of rent control, so no, you don't have an example that says removing rent controls is what drove prices higher. It's also not clear that rents for non-rent controlled units wouldn't have gone up by more if they didn't get rid of rent control. You can't control for things like investment opportunity - what was the rent control subset like? was it blighted? was there an element of crime related to the low rent units? was there business investment in the area that would have happened without the removal of the controls?


Yes it makes sense that rich people want to live in more affluent neighborhoods. But even if you can show a direct link, you're not necessarily going to have the same second order effects in other rent controlled markets. In New York for example, you have rent control on the upper west side, removing those controls isn't going to drive down crime from it's already low levels and you're not going to see those buildings razed and replaced with something that improves the overall neighborhood. Kitchens and bathrooms will get updated/upgraded and small apartments will get combined into big ones (lowering the net increase in supply of market priced rentals), rental buildings will be converted to condos/coops, but the feel of the neighborhood won't be altered as significantly as might happen in areas where neglected structures were torn down or vastly improved. There are too many factors at play, but to say that increasing supply drives higher prices, which is essentially what you're saying by this example is patently ridiculous.

 

[Gulo Blue]

...to say that increasing supply drives higher prices, which is essentially what you're saying...

No I'm not. By what trick is that a remotely fair way to interpret what I've said?

 

[Spartanmack]

No I'm not. By what trick is that a remotely fair way to interpret what I've said?

if you're not saying that removing rent controls drove prices higher then you don't have an example of removing rent controls driving prices higher.

 

[Gulo Blue]

if you're not saying that removing rent controls drove prices higher then you don't have an example of removing rent controls driving prices higher.

I am saying that there is evidence that removing rent controls drove prices higher. I'm not saying increasing supply drives higher prices. You made that leap and I have no idea why. Total mystery to me.

 

[Spartanmack]

I am saying that there is evidence that removing rent controls drove prices higher. I'm not saying increasing supply drives higher prices. You made that leap and I have no idea why. Total mystery to me.

I'm saying that evidence isn't enough to disqualify price inflation as a legitimate gripe for ending rent control.