Do not want Hoke fired

[Broszef304]

Borges? Yes, im all for being fired. Havent liked or wanted him since the hire. If they don't have the balls to fire him, make him qb coach. Want him repaced by Cam, Loeffler, or Holgerson.

But I don't want Hoke gone. People criticize his player development and I have no clue why. Anybody, please name me the players that Hoke has failed to develop.

Jake Ryan, Frank Clark, Devin Funchess. All good players, all will be future pros. All were 3* recruits. Jibreel Black was another 3*. Pretty solid player.

The one upperclassman lineman we have? Will be a top 15 pick next year.

Even with the shit Oline, and all that has gone wrong with the offense. Gardner still leads the conference in Tds. And hes not even Hoke's kind of qb.

Majority of the 2009 class isn't even on the team, and never really played on the team with Hoke.

2010 class. The highest rated player was Justice Hayes... lol. Hoke still made Clark and Desmond Morgan pretty good. (3*s)

2011 and so on, is far too young to even judge.

Another reason I don't want Hoke gone is because of recruiting. We came damn close to landing the top 1 and 2 players in the country. We have the number 1 rb right now and the number 1 athlete/2nd overall the year after. I don't remember this ever happening at Michigan.

So the highly talented recruits have either left the team at some point, are freshman/sophomore, or aren't here yet basically.

My complaints for Hoke are he has some bad on the field coaching decisions, and is too stubborn. But developing is not one.

Sorry for the long rant. Just been getting annoyed about hearing fire hoke and that he cant develop.

 

[Broszef304]

Do not want* Hoke fired.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Developed or not there is something he isn't doing right..

 

[jdeb]

Well for starters, his 5 star recruits suck and MSU's 2 star ones are way better. Funny how we have these great recruiting classes and it doesn't translate on the field. Gardner needs to stay away from the WR's stickum jar/

 

[bamf_16]

Great OP.

The argument regarding lack of player development I think is born more out of impatience, and perhaps it is the exception to the rule. Hoke's first 5 star recruits Pipkins and Kalis haven't done much yet, partially because they play the positions most argue take the longest to learn and develop. Pipkins hasn't done much of anything yet, but he didn't get much PT last year, nor this year before shredding his knee. Kalis too is in his second year with the program and hasn't yet looked like the dominating lineman fans hope for in a 5 star guard from football rich Ohio.

Last year, Hoke got 5 stars Patrick Kugler (OL - redshirting this year as he should be), Dymonte Thomas (S -playing special teams and showing some promise based solely on athletic ability), Shane Morris (QB - hasn't done much yet, even with the redshirt burned), and Derrick Green (RB - here's where the most criticism comes in, he either hasn't developed as he should be or Hoke/Borges/Jackson fucked up the depth chart).

The argument from Hoke detractors and MSU slappys about their two stars being better than Hoke's 5 stars is not just unfair, but factually incorrect. The jewels of Hoke's recruiting classes are redshirting or in their "infancy." In two years, if shit doesn't change, and Kugler, Kalis, Bosch, etc. are getting their asses kicked on the line, Green can't do jack, Shane Morris is shitting the bed, and defensively Peppers can't cover and Pipkins is getting bitchslapped on the line, then yeah, that argument stands.

 

[hungry]

What if Hoke really believes that none of this is Borges fault? WHat if he won't cut Borges loose?

You picked like 3 or 4 players out of 80 as proof of player development? That doesn't prove much to me.

Most of Hoke's good recruits are freshmen or sophomores. That's true. I keep watching other games and seeing true freshman, redshirt freshmen, and sophomores perform at high levels for other teams. What's up?

The MSU 2 star argument is completely invalid and even they know that. It's just something they like to throw in our face. They have a senior and junior laden team. Players are supposed to develop over 3-5 years and perform well. I don't see Alabama having any trouble with their 4 and 5 star players. The MSU program and their fans would gladly take 4 and 5 star players at every position if they could get them. MSU still can't get into consideration for most 4 and pretty much all 5 star players, though, let alone land any and this burns them.

 

[bamf_16]

What if Hoke really believes that none of this is Borges fault? WHat if he won't cut Borges loose?

You picked like 3 or 4 players out of 80 as proof of player development? That doesn't prove much to me.

Most of Hoke's good recruits are freshmen or sophomores. That's true. I keep watching other games and seeing true freshman, redshirt freshmen, and sophomores perform at high levels for other teams. What's up?

The MSU 2 star argument is completely invalid and even they know that. It's just something they like to throw in our face. They have a senior and junior laden team. Players are supposed to develop over 3-5 years and perform well. I don't see Alabama having any trouble with their 4 and 5 star players. The MSU program and their fans would gladly take 4 and 5 star players at every position if they could get them. MSU still can't get into consideration for most 4 and pretty much all 5 star players, though, let alone land any and this burns them.

Well, you criticize the post you quoted, "You picked like 3 or 4 players out of 80 as proof of player development? That doesn't prove much to me."

And then made a similar argument.

We all know that the rule is that freshmen typically aren't game changers either because of physical immaturity, lack of trust from coaching staffs, etc. The exception to the rule is the list of freshmen QBs like Winston and Hackenberg, defensive playmakers like Jack at UCLA, Hargreaves at Florida, and even some skill position guys like Collins at Arkansas, and Boyd at Pitt.

I am torn in terms of playing vs. redshirting freshmen. If you got a guy who needs to develop (especially young OLinemen and DLinemen), redshirt them if at all possible so your 4 years of them are when they are of the required physical strength to do something. QBs also should be redshirted if possible so their first year starting is at least their second year in the offense.

But I look at RBs, WRs, TEs, LBs, and DBs can and oftentimes think they should be playing early. UM has some highly rated guys at those positions either as freshmen now or incoming next year. Why shouldn't they get on the field and produce at least something, even if it isn't to the same level they'd produce as upperclassmen.

Fitz still sucks.

 

[biggunsbob]

7-4 says other wise..

End of discussion!!!!!!

 

[uofmdixon]

Hoke is the future of Michigan football.

 

[hungry]

Well, you criticize the post you quoted, "You picked like 3 or 4 players out of 80 as proof of player development? That doesn't prove much to me."

And then made a similar argument.

We all know that the rule is that freshmen typically aren't game changers either because of physical immaturity, lack of trust from coaching staffs, etc. The exception to the rule is the list of freshmen QBs like Winston and Hackenberg, defensive playmakers like Jack at UCLA, Hargreaves at Florida, and even some skill position guys like Collins at Arkansas, and Boyd at Pitt.

I am torn in terms of playing vs. redshirting freshmen. If you got a guy who needs to develop (especially young OLinemen and DLinemen), redshirt them if at all possible so your 4 years of them are when they are of the required physical strength to do something. QBs also should be redshirted if possible so their first year starting is at least their second year in the offense.

But I look at RBs, WRs, TEs, LBs, and DBs can and oftentimes think they should be playing early. UM has some highly rated guys at those positions either as freshmen now or incoming next year. Why shouldn't they get on the field and produce at least something, even if it isn't to the same level they'd produce as upperclassmen.

Fitz still sucks.

Well just take a look at what this Michigan staff did with their true freshmen to burn their redshirts...

let's look at Morris. Yeah, he played some garbage time and then came in on one play against PSU, handed it off to Fitz for a 2 yard loss, haven't seen him since. That's a great burn of a redshirt.

Let's look at Green. Yeah, he has gotten in there and even shown some flashes of being the back that should be starting and getting the majority of the carries. Yet this staff basically wasted his redshirt by using him as a backup and sticking with Fitz when everyone can see that Fitz isn't cutting it.

Let's look at Dymonte Thomas. Yeah, he gets in there all year on special teams and he has made some plays. Yet, he can't crack the line-up on defense. Can't anyone play special teams? We have to burn a highly recruited player's redshirt so he can play special teams?

To me, and it's only 3 examples of highly recruited players, this is a complete waste. These players either should have been used more or been redshirted.

I'm sure there are even more examples that I am missing on this roster. Many true freshmen have seen a minute or 2 here and there that haven't mattered a lick on the scoreboard.

 

[Michlady]

Brandon will review all staff of the team

He will fire borges

 

[bamf_16]

Well just take a look at what this Michigan staff did with their true freshmen to burn their redshirts...

let's look at Morris. Yeah, he played some garbage time and then came in on one play against PSU, handed it off to Fitz for a 2 yard loss, haven't seen him since. That's a great burn of a redshirt.

Let's look at Green. Yeah, he has gotten in there and even shown some flashes of being the back that should be starting and getting the majority of the carries. Yet this staff basically wasted his redshirt by using him as a backup and sticking with Fitz when everyone can see that Fitz isn't cutting it.

Let's look at Dymonte Thomas. Yeah, he gets in there all year on special teams and he has made some plays. Yet, he can't crack the line-up on defense. Can't anyone play special teams? We have to burn a highly recruited player's redshirt so he can play special teams?

To me, and it's only 3 examples of highly recruited players, this is a complete waste. These players either should have been used more or been redshirted.

I'm sure there are even more examples that I am missing on this roster. Many true freshmen have seen a minute or 2 here and there that haven't mattered a lick on the scoreboard.

Can Morris redshirt next year w/o injury? Bellomy will be back, figure Gardner's back and starting, and Bellomy goes in in the event of injury. Then it's Morris with three years of eligibility and Speight with 4. I don't know, however, if a guy can play, then redshirt w/o injury. Anyone know that?

Thomas Gordon is a good football player, but not great. And after his awful effort on that long TD pass, and after Hollowell whiffed then got outrunned, I started to wonder too if it's another example of experience over talent. There is a lengthy list of highly touted DBs on the roster whom we haven't seen.

Traditional thinking is that they must not be good enough yet. We're supposed to understand that these coaches see the kids in practice every day, and trust that they are putting the 11 best on the field.

But what we've seen from Hoke, we as fans most certainly have the right to speculate that it's b/c experience of others is trumping ability. Why else is Heitzman playing over Charlton? Avery over Thomas? Fitz over Smith & Green?

 

[hungry]

Yes, technically they could redshirt Morris next season. I extremely doubt it will happen. It's not usually done.

 

[hungry]

Brandon will review all staff of the team

He will fire borges

So you're saying that it won't be the head coach doing the firing, but the AD? That seems odd. Is that usually how it's done?

 

[Michlady]

AD will tell Brady to do it

He said three years ago his review includes everyone associated with a program. Not just the HC. And he was the one who fired all the staff from RR

 

[rumseyhouse77]

If you fire the HC, then you have to fire the others below him if you want them fired, right? Why would an HC fire anyone when he is being fired? Borges shouldn't need to be fired, he should just resign.

 

[Broszef304]

Go look at the older recruiting classes. Most of the players ive never even heard of, and never have played. like Richard ash? And hes developed more than four players, I just named a few 3*s

Green? Green got upset about his ankle injury and came in fat. Hes getting in playing shape as the season goes on and is getting more carries.

And its pretty rare freshman and RS freshman are very good at Oline.

And all this talk about 5*s.. Most of them are 4*s like Morris, Kugler, Dymonte. I think Green and Kalis are the only 5*s that are on the team. He has signed good classes but majority of them are not instant game changers. Theyre not Peppers/Campbell type of recruits.

I think people underestimate how fucked up RR had the team. its year 3 for Hoke and the team is still the 5th youngest in the nation. That isn't right.

 

[hungry]

If you fire the HC, then you have to fire the others below him if you want them fired, right? Why would an HC fire anyone when he is being fired? Borges shouldn't need to be fired, he should just resign.

They never resign. If they resign, they give up the rest of the money in their contract. If they make someone fire them, they get all of the money due or some sort of buy-out.

 

[hungry]

Go look at the older recruiting classes. Most of the players ive never even heard of, and never have played. like Richard ash? And hes developed more than four players, I just named a few 3*s

Green? Green got upset about his ankle injury and came in fat. Hes getting in playing shape as the season goes on and is getting more carries.

And its pretty rare freshman and RS freshman are very good at Oline.

And all this talk about 5*s.. Most of them are 4*s like Morris, Kugler, Dymonte. I think Green and Kalis are the only 5*s that are on the team. He has signed good classes but majority of them are not instant game changers. Theyre not Peppers/Campbell type of recruits.

I think people underestimate how fucked up RR had the team. its year 3 for Hoke and the team is still the 5th youngest in the nation. That isn't right.

Thomas, Morris, and Green were 5 star recruits by at least one of the ranking services.

 

[wlvrnstlr4life]

I say fire everyone, but Fred Jackson. He is the wellspring from which Michigan flows.