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FISA Abuse

I've read in a couple of different outlets (Time, Huffpo, at least) that separating kids from their parents is a new Trump policy just put in place by his administration.

what's the basis for your belief here?

my basis is the laws governing illegal immigration. In 1997, the federal government — President Clinton's 2nd term — came to a settlement agreement that forced the government to discharge unaccompanied illegal immigrant minors to guardians within 20 days. Similarly, the 2008 William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act requires unaccompanied minors to be settled with guardians in the United States while undergoing removal proceedings. And in 2016, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed a district court decision extending those rules to accompanied minors as well as unaccompanied minors.
 
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my basis is the laws governing illegal immigration. In 1997, the federal government ? President Clinton's 2nd term ? came to a settlement agreement that forced the government to discharge unaccompanied illegal immigrant minors to guardians within 20 days. Similarly, the 2008 William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act requires unaccompanied minors to be settled with guardians in the United States while undergoing removal proceedings. And in 2016, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed a district court decision extending those rules to accompanied minors as well as unaccompanied minors.

maybe you shouldn't us Time and Huffpo for your legal research. I would suggest you find a good lawyer at the law firm you work for and they could show you how to properly research the law.

can you link to any of that? where are you reading it?

any given district or appeallate court has lots of opinions each year.
 
I'm curious how he equates Clinton-era stuff with what they do now, since ICE didn't even exist as an agency until the DHS was created in 2001
 
I'm curious how he equates Clinton-era stuff with what they do now, since ICE didn't even exist as an agency until the DHS was created in 2001

That's what you think he's doing? He's talking about the law that governs this aspect of immigration, passed during the Clinton administration, pre ICE maybe but still on the books now. But if you think there's no comparison since ICE wasn't around, maybe you need to be reminded of this situation...

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he cites a 1997 "settlement" i.e. not a formal policy (?) the Clinton administration reached, which is not related to this as it related to unaccompanied minors... You understand that's completely different right? unaccompanied means kids who aren't here with their parents.

despite being a "brilliant" legal mind, Shapiro doesn't provide any further analysis or how this related to the current issue, for some reason.

then he cites a 2008 law, (which would've been signed by Bush) for the same holding, then a 2016 Ninth Circuit opinion (again, despite being a brilliant legal mind he doesn't cite which one).

The Ninth Circuit is not the Obama Administration.

The article he links to "read more" is just a different slightly longer version of his own article at a different site, with actual case citations also missing, but a bit more about "Obama did this too" and "whatever Trump is doing, he's doing it better," which... we just have to take his word for it, because he doesn't explain further.

Then he goes into Samantha Bee's attack on Melania...

real hard-hitting analysis.

I guess, yeah, I should go back to law school, because I fail to see the "brilliance" here... just looks like a lot of hand waving and red herrings to me.

Elian Gonzales doesn't have anything to do with this, as that was a custody dispute. you understand the difference between asylum seekers and that case, right?
 
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he cites a 1997 "settlement" i.e. not a formal policy (?) the Clinton administration reached, which is not related to this as it related to unaccompanied minors... You understand that's completely different right? unaccompanied means kids who aren't here with their parents.

despite being a "brilliant" legal mind, Shapiro doesn't provide any further analysis or how this related to the current issue, for some reason.

then he cites a 2008 law, (which would've been signed by Bush) for the same holding, then a 2016 Ninth Circuit opinion (again, despite being a brilliant legal mind he doesn't cite which one).

The Ninth Circuit is not the Obama Administration.

The article he links to "read more" is just a different slightly longer version of his own article at a different site, with actual case citations also missing, but a bit more about "Obama did this too" and "whatever Trump is doing, he's doing it better," which... we just have to take his word for it, because he doesn't explain further.

Then he goes into Samantha Bee's attack on Melania...

real hard-hitting analysis.

I guess, yeah, I should go back to law school, because I fail to see the "brilliance" here... just looks like a lot of hand waving and red herrings to me.

Elian Gonzales doesn't have anything to do with this, as that was a custody dispute. you understand the difference between asylum seekers and that case, right?

The "settlement" dating back to the Clinton era established policy consistent with the law passed in 2008 and is likely the basis for that law. what further analysis do you need?

the 9th Circuit Court may not be the Obama administration, but if they heard a case and interpreted the law to extend to accompanied as well as unaccompanied minors in 2016 that would have been based on actions taken under the Obama administration - doesn't take a brilliant legal mind to figure that out. As for your assertion that not citing the specific case in the article somehow undermines his legal acumen, let's not forget you cited "Time" and "Huffpo" as your sources that indicate otherwise. Maybe you can find a decent lawyer at the law firm where you're employed as a lawyer to teach you how to use Lexus/Nexus and do real legal research on your own.

I'm glad you were able to figure out that "read more" means it was a link to the full article. The article is not exclusively about immigration, it's about how facts are the first victim of a biased media. That's clear from the headline - I'm starting to think you're not a very good reader. The immigration issue is merely an example of that. But Shapiro never says "whatever Trump is doing, he's doing it better" than Obama did - why would you put that in quotes? Is it because you need to make Shapiro seem like a Trump supporter? He's not, he's just not suffering from Trump derangement syndrome.

As for the Elian Gonzalez reference, that was brought up because you seemed to indicate that the Clinton era, where the basis for current law came from is incomparable to today because ICE didn't exist - it was a happier time then. But the truth is, while it may have been a custody case, that's an armed immigration officer who raided Elian's uncle's house to enforce immigration law, not some friendly smiling face from family court. Are you getting the point? We had similar laws or legal settlements and although we didn't have ICE, we had something pretty similar enforcing those laws. And we're not talking about custody or asylum seekers, we're talking about illegal immigration.

If it seems like a bunch of hand waving and red herrings, do some legal research and disprove it. Try to be specific - I'm willing to give a guy who graduated cumm laude from Harvard Law at age 23 who didn't cite the specific case the benefit of the doubt over a guy from some retread law school who does his legal research on Time.com and Huffpo.
 
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Here's the opinion from the 9th circuit...

https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/07/06/15-56434.pdf

Let me help you out in case you can't get past the cover page since the relevant wording is buried in the 1st sentence of the second paragraph all the way down on page 2...

The panel held that the Settlement unambiguously applies both to minors who are accompanied and unaccompanied by their parents.

it came from another article by Shapiro that does focus exclusively on immigration...

https://www.dailywire.com/news/3115...tm_content=052918-news&utm_campaign=position1

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Why are you saying d'oh? I just asked what the basis of your belief that separating kids from their parents was established practice was.

It's still not clear from what you posted whether what Trump/Sessions are doing is the same thing, or a degree worse.
 
Why are you saying d'oh? I just asked what the basis of your belief that separating kids from their parents was established practice was.

It's still not clear from what you posted whether what Trump/Sessions are doing is the same thing, or a degree worse.

I'm not saying it, that was posted for you. so is it your professional opinion that enforcing the law (the President's job) more consistently is "a degree worse" than what prior administrations did? I don't think anyone is happy to see children separated from their families, and as Trump himself said this should be an indication that the law needs to be changed - perhaps it's a bargaining chip to get a more agreeable reform package. In the meantime it sends a signal to people who would use their own children as hostages to circumvent our laws unfairly gaining entry/access ahead of those who come here legally.
 
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Okay, so here's a summary of what Trump & Sessions have ordered ICE to start doing (link):

Amid growing outrage over his administration's policy of separating migrant families crossing the U.S. border, President Donald Trump on Saturday pretended that it wasn?t his problem, and suggested the blame should lie with Democrats. ?Put pressure on the Democrats to end the horrible law that separates children from there [sic] parents once they cross the Border into the U.S.,? he tweeted. ?Catch and Release, Lottery and Chain must also go with it and we MUST continue building the WALL! DEMOCRATS ARE PROTECTING MS-13 THUGS.?

Like many things Trump tweets, however, the idea that Democrats are responsible for what is happening at the border is nonsense. As the Associated Press notes, the previous ?catch and release? policy Trump and his administration cite as the reason for increased border crossings was put into place in 2008 by then-president George W. Bush, and was primarily created to combat the influx of children fleeing to the U.S. from Central American countries due to a surge of child trafficking. Under Trump, however, that policy has changed. In the past, the Office of Refugee Resettlement traditionally placed unaccompanied minors?that is, children who cross the border without a parent?in government-run detention centers. If a parent and a child came together, they would be processed together. In recent months, however, the Trump administration has begun forcibly taking children from their parents?some as young as one year old?and warehousing them in facilities far away from their parents, as if they had crossed the border alone.

The 2015 9th circuit decision has background on the 1997 settlement the Clinton adminstration reached.

The initial class action lawsuit was filed in the mid 80's (note: Clinton was NOT president at this time), ruling that the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) violated the equal protection clause by treating unaccompanied alien minors subject to deportation proceedings differently than unaccompanied minors in exclusion proceedings (which were the now defunct proceedings that decided whether minor would be admintted to the US.

In the latter case, the gov't would release the kids to other adult relatives while the proceedings were adjudicated; in the former case they would be detained. The settlement provided that the government could temporarily detain unaccompanied minors but only if they would otherwise not appear for their INS hearing, or had committed criminal acts, and if not then the gov't had to release them to a parent, adult relative or a list of other people that could take custody, such as those designated by the parents, or a licensed foster agency

You may realize this has nothing to do with what Trump is doing.

all this time families who entered the US illegally, IE, not asylum seekers or refugees, were often separated if they were not immediately deported together, but according to the court in Flores, that was because of a lack of space, not as an actual policy.

in 2006, after the Homeland security act increased immigration enforcement, a group of kids who were accompanied, but entered the US illegally were separated from their parents and sent to detention in a prison in Texas... the kids sued arguing that the Flores settlement required they be housed in decent conditions, and reunited with their parents.

the government argued the settlement only applied to unaccompanied minors!!!

How twisted is that? Basically, they said "If you came without your parents we have to release you to them or family because they sued; but if you came WITH your parents, we can treat you like shit and detain you because technically that settlement didn't apply to you."

The 2008 law codified this settlement; wow! common sense! the government can't treat kids who come illegally with their parents worse than kids who came illegally by themselves.

This is the opposite of course of the point Ben Shapiro was disengenuously trying to make.

The 2015 lawsuit (Flores v. Lynch) said the same thing: the government was violating the settlement by detaining kids (note: WITH their parents), as a deterrence to keep them from coming here, whether or not they were accompanied, was unconstitutional. the court did hold that contrary to the lawsuit, the government was not required to release their parents if they were also detained.

Now Trump is violating this again, and not only by detaining refugee & asylum-seeking families as a deterrence, but also by separating the kids from their parents, which was not done before.

I'm trying not to be partisan about this; the government, especially ICE, has long been shitty to illegal and legal immigrants, regardless of who was in the White House. But this policy is unquestionably new, and bad, and coupled with Trump's racist, fever-pitch inflammatory rhetoric, it is made even worse.
 
Talk about your hand waving and red herrings. This is sheer nonsense, start to finish.
 
This story is Watergate x 10 and has been building for months. And yet it's likely to come as a surprise to most DSF posters.

Conspiracy at high levels in FBI and DOJ to influence the election and to then overturn the result.

The only collusion that took place was between Hillary, the DNC, rogue agents at the FBI and whatever foreign agents they paid to cook up a false "dossier" used to get a FISA warrant that authorized or enabled spying on Trump campaign and American citizens.

Read it, gentlemen. The bureaucrats sure as hell tried. Only those most deranged fail to see it now.

https://amgreatness.com/2019/02/17/autopsy-of-a-dead-coup/
 
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This ain’t over, boys, it’s halftime. Now that the collusion BS has been shown to be a complete and utter hoax, expect serious fire to be trained on the Obama era officials who perpetrated the conspiracy.
 
This ain?t over, boys, it?s halftime. Now that the collusion BS has been shown to be a complete and utter hoax, expect serious fire to be trained on the Obama era officials who perpetrated the conspiracy.

34 indictments as a result of the Special Counsel Investigation. While I'm glad to know that our sitting president isn't a Russian puppet, I'm also glad that the scum that he and others surrounded himself with are removed from the picture permanently.

Do you think any investigation into Obama era officials will result in more ore less indictments?
 
34 indictments as a result of the Special Counsel Investigation. While I'm glad to know that our sitting president isn't a Russian puppet, I'm also glad that the scum that he and others surrounded himself with are removed from the picture permanently.

Do you think any investigation into Obama era officials will result in more ore less indictments?

Fewer. But far more important and relevant.
 
Fewer. But far more important and relevant.

Nobody cares about this anymore.

Actually pretty much nobody ever cared about this ever.

Sure, some conservative talk radio hosts still care about this but they’re not going to change anything.

Not a single indictment is going to come of this. Not a single further investigation is going to come of this.

Because the Democrats didn’t win.

EDIT: My bad. My incredible memory failed me just a little bit. TigerMud might’ve started this thread, but you made the most dunce Claim and post number three, when you said that this would be 10 times bigger than Watergate.

The freaking sitting president resigned because of Watergate! How the fuck could anything be bigger than that-especially when the president at the time of the FISA abuse was already out of office. How can a President who has been termed out be forced to resign?

They really don’t teach anything about logic or reason or critical thinking that that stupid university down south, apparently.

Anyway, it turned out that I did go back and check the early posts of this thread.

Before of the edit:

If the Democrats had won, it might’ve been different, but they didn’t, so nobody-again except for conservative talk radio hosts-care about this.

If you look back at when I first posted on this thread, when you started this thread as long ago as you did-I’m not bothering to look but it’s been at least over a year-this is exactly what I said all that time ago.

Since the Democrats didn’t win, nobody cares.
 
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