Florida's "stand your ground" law

[Michchamp]

Yes, I listened to the calls. Yes, I've read many of the accounts. No, I was not there, and neither was anyone else here. Because I could in no way testify in court, I'm not going to make judgements on a message board.

that's fine, but you would at the very least agree that under the circumstances here, an arrest should have been made? the police shouldn't decide when the killing of an unarmed kid is justified or not.

to put it another way, if Michigan passes a "stand your ground" law that explicitly allows the use of deadly force in public places if a person so much as perceives their life to be in danger, and some 25-year-old cop wannabe chased down, fought with, and then shot a 17 year old kid in your neighborhood, you would just shrug your shoulders and not be troubled by the precedent set by the failure of law enforcement to at least arrest the guy and let the state's attorney decide if charges should be filed?

 

[byco42]

that's fine, but you would at the very least agree that under the circumstances here, an arrest should have been made? the police shouldn't decide when the killing of an unarmed kid is justified or not.

to put it another way, if Michigan passes a "stand your ground" law that explicitly allows the use of deadly force in public places if a person so much as perceives their life to be in danger, and some 25-year-old cop wannabe chased down, fought with, and then shot a 17 year old kid in your neighborhood, you would just shrug your shoulders and not be troubled by the precedent set by the failure of law enforcement to at least arrest the guy and let the state's attorney decide if charges should be filed?

An arrest should have been made, yes, but, at the same time, Zimmerman is not going anywhere and will likely be arrested. And the whole "stand your ground" law...help me understand the application in this instance, because it's not apparent to me.

 

[Michchamp]

An arrest should have been made, yes, but, at the same time, Zimmerman is not going anywhere and will likely be arrested. And the whole "stand your ground" law...help me understand the application in this instance, because it's not apparent to me.

if you read the text of the law, it dramatically expands the definition of when you can use deadly force. so much so, that DA's in Florida have in some cases declined to bring charges. Because of the law, predictably, in a lot of killings, the only witness who could contest the self defense claim is dead, so prosecutors have no way to overcome the presumption of innocence the law creates.

traditionally, you could only use deadly force in public if you were threatened with deadly force, i.e. a gun. You had a duty to retreat if possible, and that was certainly available to Zimmerman here. Basically, because the criminal laws were written to protect life above all else, you couldn't justify a killing if you went out of your way to get involved in a violent situation, like Zimmerman did.

and of course... a claim of "self defense" had to be presented AT TRIAL. back when we (or I should say, Florida) actually had common sense laws and criminal procedures, you would be CHARGED for killing another person and then have to present the evidence of your self defense claim at trial and it would have to be believed by a jury to the extent necessary to refute the homicide charge against you. You didn't just say the cops "He threatened me!" and get a free pass.

also, Zimmerman's (not very competent sounding) lawyer is claiming the "stand your ground" law doesn't apply here because it's only related to the defense of the home, which is absolutely not true. If he's going to rely on a self defense claim at trial by itself, he's going to get convicted of murder. Or he should... but then again, he will have a jury composed of Floridians... need I say more?

 

[Michchamp]

An arrest should have been made, yes, but, at the same time, Zimmerman is not going anywhere and will likely be arrested. ...

well I hope so. And charged. If he's acquitted, fine, but at least the rule of law will prevail.

and score one for community activism getting government to act if that's the case.

 

[mhughes0021]

if you read the text of the law, it dramatically expands the definition of when you can use deadly force. so much so, that DA's in Florida have in some cases declined to bring charges. Because of the law, predictably, in a lot of killings, the only witness who could contest the self defense claim is dead, so prosecutors have no way to overcome the presumption of innocence the law creates.

traditionally, you could only use deadly force in public if you were threatened with deadly force, i.e. a gun. You had a duty to retreat if possible, and that was certainly available to Zimmerman here. Basically, because the criminal laws were written to protect life above all else, you couldn't justify a killing if you went out of your way to get involved in a violent situation, like Zimmerman did.

and of course... a claim of "self defense" had to be presented AT TRIAL. back when we (or I should say, Florida) actually had common sense laws and criminal procedures, you would be CHARGED for killing another person and then have to present the evidence of your self defense claim at trial and it would have to be believed by a jury to the extent necessary to refute the homicide charge against you. You didn't just say the cops "He threatened me!" and get a free pass.

also, Zimmerman's (not very competent sounding) lawyer is claiming the "stand your ground" law doesn't apply here because it's only related to the defense of the home, which is absolutely not true. If he's going to rely on a self defense claim at trial by itself, he's going to get convicted of murder. Or he should... but then again, he will have a jury composed of Floridians... need I say more?

none of that seemed very defensive in nature. You want to claim self defense...lock yourself in your house and when the kid is trying to break in shoot him. Tracking him down while youre on the phone with the police while spitting out racial slurs, an altercation happens no matter what the reason, and a kid ends up dead. Thats all pretty OFFENSIVE to me...i dont need to know the facts. IF a weird looking hispanic/white guy was chasing me down with a gun ofcourse id try to defend myself...its no wonder a skirmish happned which is why the cops told him to stay the fuck away. Something happens in that case 10 out of 10 times....which is why he is 100% at fault and should be arrested. Again...that was NOT self defense....none of it.

 

[Michchamp]

Now Fox News is reporting that two anonymous police sources claimed they witnessed Martin on top of Zimmerman, pummeling him.

The Trib reported the same thing, while also noting the claim that Martin was suspended from school for having an empty bag of pot on him (?) which is apparently relevant to this issue (???)

Weird this is just getting reported now... since the shooting happened in February. other witnesses have reported that the police pressured them to claim Zimmerman was the one yelling for help.

still doesn't change anything. the DA should be the one to investigate & decide if he will file charges, not the police. Zimmerman should've been arrested.

 

[Michchamp]

none of that seemed very defensive in nature. You want to claim self defense...lock yourself in your house and when the kid is trying to break in shoot him. Tracking him down while youre on the phone with the police while spitting out racial slurs, an altercation happens no matter what the reason, and a kid ends up dead. Thats all pretty OFFENSIVE to me...i dont need to know the facts. IF a weird looking hispanic/white guy was chasing me down with a gun ofcourse id try to defend myself...its no wonder a skirmish happned which is why the cops told him to stay the fuck away. Something happens in that case 10 out of 10 times....which is why he is 100% at fault and should be arrested. Again...that was NOT self defense....none of it.

well, I tend to think that's what happened. And I agree, in any normal place (i.e. not Florida, Arizona or Texas) you can't put yourself in harm's way, then claim self defense when you use deadly force. That's making murder de facto legal.

But... this is Florida, where you can simply start blasting away if you feel threatened.

in any normal place, he would've been arrested, and the DA should've decided whether to charge him or not.

 

[mhughes0021]

well, I tend to think that's what happened. And I agree, in any normal place (i.e. not Florida, Arizona or Texas) you can't put yourself in harm's way, then claim self defense when you use deadly force. That's making murder de facto legal.

But... this is Florida, where you can simply start blasting away if you feel threatened.

in any normal place, he would've been arrested, and the DA should've decided whether to charge him or not.

True....they couldnt even tally votes so i shouldnt expect them to arrest people when they murder someone. Glad im 3000 miles away from that shit hole.

 

[KAWDUP]

True....they couldnt even tally votes so i shouldnt expect them to arrest people when they murder someone. Glad im 3000 miles away from that shit hole.

They tallied votes just fine. :*)

 

[KAWDUP]

Just couldn't count chads to save their life.

 

[cheeno]

True....they couldnt even tally votes so i shouldnt expect them to arrest people when they murder someone. Glad im 3000 miles away from that shit hole.

Upon moving to San Diego I think the city council sends you a notarized letter allowing you to criticize every other place on the planet, it is just that nice, so I see where you are coming from.

Florida is a really nice state filled with some cranky old retirees, Disney seeking tourists, well off bastards in gated communities, real poor blacks and whites, ex-New Yawkers and East Coast Jews, celebrities, Cubans, Haitians, French Canadians, and Lebron James. No wonder they are so messed up. So anyways the hole is nice, but you are right Hughes its what fills the hole that throws a kink into things.

 

[grandy]

Now Fox News is reporting that two anonymous police sources claimed they witnessed Martin on top of Zimmerman, pummeling him.

The Trib reported the same thing, while also noting the claim that Martin was suspended from school for having an empty bag of pot on him (?) which is apparently relevant to this issue (???)

Weird this is just getting reported now... since the shooting happened in February. other witnesses have reported that the police pressured them to claim Zimmerman was the one yelling for help.

still doesn't change anything. the DA should be the one to investigate & decide if he will file charges, not the police. Zimmerman should've been arrested.

So let me get this straight...a 140lb kid managed to get on top of a 250lb grown man with a gun and started beating him up. Either Zimmerman is a tub of goo or the sources are bullshit. Oh Fox News...

 

[tsmith7559]

So let me get this straight...a 140lb kid managed to get on top of a 250lb grown man with a gun and started beating him up. Either Zimmerman is a tub of goo or the sources are bullshit. Oh Fox News...

egg on your face.......keep talking

 

[grandy]

egg on your face.......keep talking

That kid must've been a beast, huh?

 

[mhughes0021]

Upon moving to San Diego I think the city council sends you a notarized letter allowing you to criticize every other place on the planet, it is just that nice, so I see where you are coming from.

Florida is a really nice state filled with some cranky old retirees, Disney seeking tourists, well off bastards in gated communities, real poor blacks and whites, ex-New Yawkers and East Coast Jews, Cubans, Haitians, French Canadians, and Lebron James. No wonder they are so messed up. So anyways the hole is nice, but you are right Hughes its what fills the whole that throws a kink into things.

Its a hot muggy mess and its main attraction is hurricane season But i was just trying to poke fun....Florida can be nice....when its not 100 degrees outside in the summer and walking outside actually suffocates you with humidity.

San Diego has plenty of flaws...city counsel sucks and probably wont be able to keep a football team here, every city in the san diego metropolitan area is basically bankrupt and making no money (except Santee which is the little area i live in and actually has a huge sign when you enter the city saying "WERE IN THE BLACK!"...kinda funny).

 

[cheeno]

Its a hot muggy mess and its main attraction is hurricane season But i was just trying to poke fun....Florida can be nice....when its not 100 degrees outside in the summer and walking outside actually suffocates you with humidity.

San Diego has plenty of flaws...city counsel sucks and probably wont be able to keep a football team here, every city in the san diego metropolitan area is basically bankrupt and making no money (except Santee which is the little area i live in and actually has a huge sign when you enter the city saying "WERE IN THE BLACK!"...kinda funny).

I've never lived somewhere without oppressive summer humidity so I wouldn't know what that's like, Michigan is just as bad. I guess wherever you live there are flaws but SD to me is one of the nicest places on the planet. In terms of people negatively contributing to the national consciousness all you have is Kony 2012 director Jason Russell. Florida has spawned in recent times Zimmerman, Casey Anthony, and *shudder* Jeb Bush.

 

[Diggler Cometh]

Its a hot muggy mess and its main attraction is hurricane season But i was just trying to poke fun....Florida can be nice....when its not 100 degrees outside in the summer and walking outside actually suffocates you with humidity.

San Diego has plenty of flaws...city counsel sucks and probably wont be able to keep a football team here, every city in the san diego metropolitan area is basically bankrupt and making no money (except Santee which is the little area i live in and actually has a huge sign when you enter the city saying "WERE IN THE BLACK!"...kinda funny).

You sound like an expert on the state of Florida... We haven't had a bad hurricane season since 04. If you live down here you don't notice the heat after the first year. You just kind of deal with it, pack an extra shirt and enjoy yourself.

 

[Slick]

the golf in Florida is some of the best in the world from Orlando on down....love it there.

 

[Diggler Cometh]

the golf in Florida is some of the best in the world from Orlando on down....love it there.

I'd rather be on a boat fishing..

 

[cheeno]

I'd rather be on a boat fishing..

Same.