guess who said "Bill Nye is as much a scientist as I am"

[Michchamp]

Agreed. Solar has a role to play too I think. But in the nearer term, nuclear.

yes. and when meltdowns and leaks of spent nuclear fuel become as common a daily occurrence as mass shootings in this country, Real estate prices (of whatever habitable land remains) will skyrocket.

I'm never surprised anymore how incompetent human-run organizations are... even those you'd otherwise expect to be competent. finding someone who will follow procedures on a daily basis no matter how routine they become, is nearly impossible. therefore I think it's FUCKING INSANE to expect nuclear plant engineers to be any different, and so get ready for lots more accidents, no matter how fool-proof their reactors are engineered to be.

the list of nuclear accidents (both civilian and military) is shocking. it's almost a miracle we're all still here.

 

[Michchamp]

Yeah. We eat a lot meat. We might start eating a lot of "lab grown" at some point.

Something about that "extra humans" phrase really bugs me. Not the first thing Nye has said that I don't like.

It takes maybe a little too objective a view of people, perhaps?

like if he said "extra tigers" or "extra amoebas" you probably wouldn't bat an eye, but humans? we're special.

 

[Gulo Blue]

yes. and when meltdowns and leaks of spent nuclear fuel become as common a daily occurrence as mass shootings in this country, Real estate prices (of whatever habitable land remains) will skyrocket.

I'm never surprised anymore how incompetent human-run organizations are... even those you'd otherwise expect to be competent. finding someone who will follow procedures on a daily basis no matter how routine they become, is nearly impossible. therefore I think it's FUCKING INSANE to expect nuclear plant engineers to be any different, and so get ready for lots more accidents, no matter how fool-proof their reactors are engineered to be.

the list of nuclear accidents (both civilian and military) is shocking. it's almost a miracle we're all still here.

Energy is dangerous. But nuclear is about as safe as it gets.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesco...-deathprint-a-price-always-paid/#67e2375a49d2




Energy Source Mortality Rate (deaths/trillionkWhr)

Coal ? global average 100,000 (50% global electricity)

Coal ? China 170,000 (75% China?s electricity)

Coal ? U.S. 10,000 (44% U.S. electricity)

Oil 36,000 (36% of energy, 8% of electricity)

Natural Gas 4,000 (20% global electricity)

Biofuel/Biomass 24,000 (21% global energy)

Solar (rooftop) 440 (< 1% global electricity)

Wind 150 (~ 1% global electricity)

Hydro ? global average 1,400 (15% global electricity)

Hydro ? U.S. 0.01 (7% U.S. electricity)


Nuclear ? global average 90 (17% global electricity w/Chern&Fukush)

Nuclear ? U.S. 0.01 (19% U.S. electricity)

 

[Gulo Blue]

It takes maybe a little too objective a view of people, perhaps?

like if he said "extra tigers" or "extra amoebas" you probably wouldn't bat an eye, but humans? we're special.

Yeah. I do feel that way. We are special.

 

[Michchamp]

Yeah. I do feel that way. We are special.

I don't disagree; I mean, I'm a human and I'm rooting for our species to do well, and become the number one species in the universe; it's just that I can admit we're just one of many different species when it comes down to it.

 

[Michchamp]

Energy is dangerous. But nuclear is about as safe as it gets.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesco...-deathprint-a-price-always-paid/#67e2375a49d2




Energy Source Mortality Rate (deaths/trillionkWhr)

Coal ? global average 100,000 (50% global electricity)

Coal ? China 170,000 (75% China?s electricity)

Coal ? U.S. 10,000 (44% U.S. electricity)

Oil 36,000 (36% of energy, 8% of electricity)

Natural Gas 4,000 (20% global electricity)

Biofuel/Biomass 24,000 (21% global energy)

Solar (rooftop) 440 (< 1% global electricity)

Wind 150 (~ 1% global electricity)

Hydro ? global average 1,400 (15% global electricity)

Hydro ? U.S. 0.01 (7% U.S. electricity)


Nuclear ? global average 90 (17% global electricity w/Chern&Fukush)

Nuclear ? U.S. 0.01 (19% U.S. electricity)

you're not taking into account the fact that : 1) nuclear contamination is a hell of a lot harder to clean up than the others; in some cases its completely impossible; 2) there will be a lot more accidents the more we rely on it, and 3) we're already struggling to store all the nuclear waste we currently generate, despite the fact that nuclear power is only 10%? 15%? of our current power generation.

 

[Gulo Blue]

you're not taking into account the fact that : 1) nuclear contamination is a hell of a lot harder to clean up than the others; in some cases its completely impossible; 2) there will be a lot more accidents the more we rely on it, and 3) we're already struggling to store all the nuclear waste we currently generate, despite the fact that nuclear power is only 10%? 15%? of our current power generation.

There are new designs that would yield less waste and even use the waste we've already produced. Also, I don't believe there's been a single failure of a reactor designed after the 70's. They've developed passive emergency cooling systems. I think we should decommission all the stuff not designed that way.

 

[Michchamp]

There are new designs that would yield less waste and even use the waste we've already produced. Also, I don't believe there's been a single failure of a reactor designed after the 70's. They've developed passive emergency cooling systems. I think we should decommission all the stuff not designed that way.

that's really true? you're not just blowing smoke up everyone's ass?

 

[TheVictors]

Climate change -- caused by man and carbon emissions -- is not a debatable topic, it's happening.

And in 100yrs when hundreds of species are dead, the Earth is dried and hot, my son's son's son will say his great-great grandpa could have done more

 

[Gulo Blue]

that's really true? you're not just blowing smoke up everyone's ass?

Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima reactors were all built between the late 60's-late 70's. All began operation in the 70's. I'm pretty sure I read an article about how Fukushima was a known-to-be-crappy design (by GE, I think.) I've watched TED Talks videos about new design where the nuclear fuel is somehow embedded in salts so that in a meltdown, with power cut, the tank floods, the salts melt, and the fuel gets flushed into emergency dump tanks.

Even without that design, I'm pretty sure I read (like 10-20 years ago) about a German reactor designed to be safe even if all power was cut to all the safety systems and they actually tested it to prove it worked.

 

[TheVictors]

Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima reactors were all built between the late 60's-late 70's. All began operation in the 70's. I'm pretty sure I read an article about how Fukushima was a known-to-be-crappy design (by GE, I think.) I've watched TED Talks videos about new design where the nuclear fuel is somehow embedded in salts so that in a meltdown, with power cut, the tank floods, the salts melt, and the fuel gets flushed into emergency dump tanks.

Even without that design, I'm pretty sure I read (like 10-20 years ago) about a German reactor designed to be safe even if all power was cut to all the safety systems and they actually tested it to prove it worked.

a friend of mine married a Russian woman who grew up in the shadows of Chernobyl.

she died last year of cancer and over the past decade, had almost every form of cancer imaginable. her body literally disintegrated as cancer ate away at everything.

there is the idea that she, and countless others to come, were so poisoned by Chernobyl that her three kids that she had before dying ..may also be at risk.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I'm not saying I'd want to live next to a reactor, but if forced to choose, I'd rather live next to a nuclear reactor than a coal mine. And I'd definitely rather work at a nuclear plant than in a coal mine.

 

[Michchamp]

a friend of mine married a Russian woman who grew up in the shadows of Chernobyl.

she died last year of cancer and over the past decade, had almost every form of cancer imaginable. her body literally disintegrated as cancer ate away at everything.

there is the idea that she, and countless others to come, were so poisoned by Chernobyl that her three kids that she had before dying ..may also be at risk.

yeah, the delay between the event and eventual death shows how the actual human cost of these accidents is typically understated.

and beyond that, the a dose of radiation affects some more severly than others. I saw a documentary (Radio Bikini) on netflix about the tests on Bikini Atoll where the US knowingly exposed thousands of sailors to radiation and radioactive fallout. some of them died some pretty horrible deaths, but most of them survived without severe complications, although in the documentary they said their lifespans were all reduced by some significant amount.

granted, it's not likely we'll see a nuclear plant disaster with as much fallout as that, just pointing out how the casualties from these events are hard to quantify and typically undercounted.

 

[TheVictors]

yeah, the delay between the event and eventual death shows how the actual human cost of these accidents is typically understated.

and beyond that, the a dose of radiation affects some more severly than others. I saw a documentary (Radio Bikini) on netflix about the tests on Bikini Atoll where the US knowingly exposed thousands of sailors to radiation and radioactive fallout. some of them died some pretty horrible deaths, but most of them survived without severe complications, although in the documentary they said their lifespans were all reduced by some significant amount.

granted, it's not likely we'll see a nuclear plant disaster with as much fallout as that, just pointing out how the casualties from these events are hard to quantify and typically undercounted.

all of her sisters and her mother all have/had cancer or died. and some crazy percentage of the people from her city have cancer.

agree on the coal mine - wouldn't want to work in one either

 

[Gulo Blue]

I saw a documentary (Radio Bikini) on netflix about the tests on Bikini Atoll where the US knowingly exposed thousands of sailors to radiation and radioactive fallout. some of them died some pretty horrible deaths, but most of them survived without severe complications, although in the documentary they said their lifespans were all reduced by some significant amount.

It might have killed John Wayne too. He filmed a movie downwind of a nuclear test site and they brought back tons of dirt from the film site to work in studio in similar looking conditions. I guess an unusual number of people involved with whatever that movie was died of cancer.

 

[Michchamp]

It might have killed John Wayne too. He filmed a movie downwind of a nuclear test site and they brought back tons of dirt from the film site to work in studio in similar looking conditions. I guess an unusual number of people involved with whatever that movie was died of cancer.

what a fucking idiot.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Another way to look at it is to consider 3 Mile Island as a big wake up call with important lessons learned. Nothing designed after the 3 Mile Island failure has had a catastrophic meltdown.

I can't find it, but there was an old video about 3 Mile Island with James Duderstant talking about it...can't remember the details. Like the 10th anniversary or something like that. That's Duderstadt's background. I think he's argued before Congress over nuclear research funding.

 

[Gulo Blue]

what a fucking idiot.

In the movie, which I haven't seen and don't remember the name, he played Genghis Khan.

 

[Michchamp]

It might have killed John Wayne too. He filmed a movie downwind of a nuclear test site and they brought back tons of dirt from the film site to work in studio in similar looking conditions. I guess an unusual number of people involved with whatever that movie was died of cancer.

sounds like this is true, but you can blame Howard Hughes for bringing the radioactive dirt back to the studio. link.

 

[Michchamp]

it's also pretty horrifying how much fallout and radioactivity was thrown into the air by all the testing done in the 50's and 60's...

the excuse from the US seems to be "aw cripes, how were we supposed to know radiation was harmful?"