Iran deal

[Thumb]

of course it's crazy to think religious fanatics who openly deny Israel's right to exist and call for it's complete and total destruction would ever use nuclear weapons against them - because other warring nations with nuclear capabilities haven't done it for almost 70 years...

Yes, that was the entire gist of my post, you have it all figured out. Of course you skipped over the part where every nation that has the bomb understands that to use it is suicide, which is the largest reason none have been dropped in hostility since 1945.

 

[Thumb]

this agreement probably has the same impact on Iran's chances of getting the bomb as Kim Jong-il's promises to dismantle his nuclear program had on North Korea's chances of getting a bomb...

You're right, lets just forget the whole thing then.

 

[Spartanmack]

Yes, that was the entire gist of my post, you have it all figured out. Of course you skipped over the part where every nation that has the bomb understands that to use it is suicide, which is the largest reason none have been dropped in hostility since 1945.

I didn't skip over it - I pointed out that the fact that nuclear weapons haven't been used in 70 years doesn't inspire much confidence that Iran will be no different because Iran is different. Every nation that has nuclear capabilities has self preservation as their defense policy. Not so with Iran. They have clearly called for the complete annihilation of Israel and they're ruled by a bunch of backward religious fanatics.

 

[byco42]

I'm mildly surprised that some here are attempting to understand the motivation of self-avowed theocratic tyrants as the same as other more reasonable, secular-ly motivated tyrants.

 

[Spartanmack]

You're right, lets just forget the whole thing then.

Interesting summation from the guy who says we shouldn't worry because even if Iran got the bomb, they would never use it since most others who have nukes haven't used them - i.e. fuhgeddaboudit!

 

[Thumb]

Interesting summation from the guy who says we shouldn't worry because even if Iran got the bomb, they would never use it since most others who have nukes haven't used them - i.e. fuhgeddaboudit!

That's not at all what I said. But I'm sure you know that. Smoke and mirrors.

 

[Spartanmack]

That's not at all what I said. But I'm sure you know that. Smoke and mirrors.

It's pretty close - a lot closer than what I said.

 

[Monster]

I guess I just don't understand how this is a bad deal????

Iran is already pushing forward with their Nuclear program and we have absolutely nobody in that country to watch the progress. From all reports, they're past so called "red lines". Our sanctions have done nothing to stop them...really all it has done is hurt the Iranian people and their economy. You think anybody in the Iran Gov't is worrying about their money?

Why not get something out of this deal while we still can? 24/7 access to Nuclear sites, including surveillance cameras installed in the buildings is a very good deal. They pull an Iraq or North Korea and try to restrict access or push out inspectors, you immediately renew the sanctions...which is what I believe is in the agreement.

Unless there is some fine print in the agreement, I see this as a win/win. Without this agreement, they would eventually build their stock of Nukes.

I would like to see Obama get our prisoners out of Iran, though. Very disappointed it wasn't included in the deal.

 

[Michchamp]

I have a friend I haven't spoken to much in the past couple years turn into a Fox News bot. last night, out of the blue, he sent out a mass text message rant to a bunch of people, myself included.

quote: "Let's all congrats Obama on making Iran a nuclear superpower today. Unreal"

I asked him to explain exactly how that was true in this case (a nuclear superpower? really?) and he started claiming that Obama was actually a bad negotiator and should've gotten Iran to cease all nuclear activity completely. Of course dictating terms like that to a sovereign nation only makes sense if you accept the BS that Iran is the next Hitler. I don't.

 

[Michchamp]

I just read this slate article that claims Israel and Saudi Arabia oppose the deal more or less solely on the basis of regional economics, although of course they can't come out and say that, so instead we hear these ludicrous claims that Iran is the next Hitler Satan who will seize control of the world now.

the essential fear is that this deal opens the door to the end of sanctions against Iran, and more normalized trade relations with the west.. and an improved Iranian economy will come at the expense of the Israelis and Saudis own economic strength.

I think this makes sense. if you look at the history of the whole region, Iran/Persia was always where most of the power and economic potential lay. Rome could never conquer it. it's only been through US support and opposition to Iran that allowed Saudi and Israeli firms to avoid competing with Iranian firms.

I've said I don't believe Iran is really the rogue state they're made out to be, and I think the burden to prove this rests on those asserting it, amd theyve failed to meet it. no, that single out-of-context quote from ahmenijad about Israel's right to exist doesnt make them a rogue nation.

I'm not saying Iran is some paradise or utopia, just that they haven't really done much to justify this, other than kick out our supported dictator in 1978 (who we put in power after we toppled their democracy in the 50's), and hold some americans hostage for 444 days (after Reagan negotiated their release after the military attempt to rescue them was a disaster... blame Jimmy Carter!). For these reasons, I don't think Iran has done anything to justify their rogue nation status and continued embargoes and sanctions, at least when you compare them to some of our allies, who behave at least as bad at home and abroad, if not worse.

another ridiculous angle here is how some American officials (all Republitards) pretend to care about gay and women's rights... but only when Iran infringes on them. you never see them level the same criticisms at Saudi Arabia, which is an arguably more refressive and oppressive nation. shit, at least the Iranians can vote for their president. Saudi Arabia is an old fashioned monarchy.

 

[Spartanmack]

I just read this slate article that claims Israel and Saudi Arabia oppose the deal more or less solely on the basis of regional economics, although of course they can't come out and say that, so instead we hear these ludicrous claims that Iran is the next Hitler Satan who will seize control of the world now.

the essential fear is that this deal opens the door to the end of sanctions against Iran, and more normalized trade relations with the west.. and an improved Iranian economy will come at the expense of the Israelis and Saudis own economic strength.

I think this makes sense. if you look at the history of the whole region, Iran/Persia was always where most of the power and economic potential lay. Rome could never conquer it. it's only been through US support and opposition to Iran that allowed Saudi and Israeli firms to avoid competing with Iranian firms.

I've said I don't believe Iran is really the rogue state they're made out to be, and I think the burden to prove this rests on those asserting it, amd theyve failed to meet it. no, that single out-of-context quote from ahmenijad about Israel's right to exist doesnt make them a rogue nation.

I'm not saying Iran is some paradise or utopia, just that they haven't really done much to justify this, other than kick out our supported dictator in 1978 (who we put in power after we toppled their democracy in the 50's), and hold some americans hostage for 444 days (after Reagan negotiated their release after the military attempt to rescue them was a disaster... blame Jimmy Carter!). For these reasons, I don't think Iran has done anything to justify their rogue nation status and continued embargoes and sanctions, at least when you compare them to some of our allies, who behave at least as bad at home and abroad, if not worse.

another ridiculous angle here is how some American officials (all Republitards) pretend to care about gay and women's rights... but only when Iran infringes on them. you never see them level the same criticisms at Saudi Arabia, which is an arguably more refressive and oppressive nation. shit, at least the Iranians can vote for their president. Saudi Arabia is an old fashioned monarchy.

Here's a sample of just some of top Iranian government officials' comments on Israel over the last 16 years (link to full piece below). Single, out of context quote from Ahmedinijad? Smoke and mirrors...

Mohammad Khatami, the former president of Iran: “If we abide by real legal laws, we should mobilize the whole Islamic world for a sharp confrontation with the Zionist regime … if we abide by the Koran, all of us should mobilize to kill.” (2000)

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei: “It is the mission of the Islamic Republic of Iran to erase Israel from the map of the region.” (2001)

Hassan Nasrallah, a leader of Hezbollah: “If they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.” (2002)

Nasrallah: “Israel is our enemy. This is an aggressive, illegal, and illegitimate entity, which has no future in our land. Its destiny is manifested in our motto: ‘Death to Israel.’” (2005)

Yahya Rahim Safavi, the former commander of Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps: “With God’s help the time has come for the Zionist regime’s death sentence.” (2008)

Mohammad Hassan Rahimian, Khamenei’s representative to the Moustazafan Foundation: “We have manufactured missiles that allow us, when necessary to replace [sic] Israel in its entirety with a big holocaust.” (2010)

Mohammad Reza Naqdi, the commander of the Basij paramilitary force: “We recommend them [the Zionists] to pack their furniture and return to their countries. And if they insist on staying, they should know that a time while arrive when they will not even have time to pack their suitcases.” (2011)


Khamenei: “The Zionist regime is a cancerous tumor and it will be removed.” (2012)

Ahmad Alamolhoda, a member of the Assembly of Experts: “The destruction of Israel is the idea of the Islamic Revolution in Iran and is one of the pillars of the Iranian Islamic regime. We cannot claim that we have no intention of going to war with Israel.” (2013)

Nasrallah: “The elimination of Israel is not only a Palestinian interest. It is the interest of the entire Muslim world and the entire Arab world.” (2013)

Hojateleslam Alireza Panahian, the advisor to Office of the Supreme Leader in Universities: “The day will come when the Islamic people in the region will destroy Israel and save the world from this Zionist base.” (2013)

Hojatoleslam Ali Shirazi, Khamenei’s representative in the Revolutionary Guard: “The Zionist regime will soon be destroyed, and this generation will be witness to its destruction." (2013)

Khamenei: “This barbaric, wolflike & infanticidal regime of Israel which spares no crime has no cure but to be annihilated.” (2014)

Hossein Salami, the deputy head of the Revolutionary Guard: "We will chase you [Israelis] house to house and will take revenge for every drop of blood of our martyrs in Palestine, and this is the beginning point of Islamic nations awakening for your defeat." (2014)

Salami: "Today we are aware of how the Zionist regime is slowly being erased from the world, and indeed, soon, there will be no such thing as the Zionist regime on Planet Earth." (2014)

Hossein Sheikholeslam, the secretary-general of the Committee for Support for the Palestinian Intifada: "The issue of Israel's destruction is important, no matter the method. We will obviously implement the strategy of the Imam Khomeini and the Leader [Khamenei] on the issue of destroying the Zionists. The region will not be quiet so long as Israel exists in it ..." (2014)

Mohammad Ali Jafari, the commander-in-chief of the Revolutionary Guard: "The Revolutionary Guards will fight to the end of the Zionist regime ... We will not rest easy until this epitome of vice is totally deleted from the region's geopolitics." (2015)

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/03/Iranian-View-of-Israel/387085/

I also got a kick out of your comment about Iranians voting for their president - in rigged elections for a powerless figure head. Talk about free society...

 

[byco42]

Quds Day, 7-10-15:

You know the axiomatic saying about pictures. And we all know the "urgency" which with Iraninan leadership suppresses public demonstrations that it finds objectionable.

 

[Michchamp]

Here's a sample of just some of top Iranian government officials' comments on Israel over the last 16 years (link to full piece below). Single, out of context quote from Ahmedinijad? Smoke and mirrors...

Mohammad Khatami, the former president of Iran: ?If we abide by real legal laws, we should mobilize the whole Islamic world for a sharp confrontation with the Zionist regime ? if we abide by the Koran, all of us should mobilize to kill.? (2000)

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei: ?It is the mission of the Islamic Republic of Iran to erase Israel from the map of the region.? (2001)

Hassan Nasrallah, a leader of Hezbollah: ?If they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.? (2002)

Nasrallah: ?Israel is our enemy. This is an aggressive, illegal, and illegitimate entity, which has no future in our land. Its destiny is manifested in our motto: ?Death to Israel.?? (2005)

Yahya Rahim Safavi, the former commander of Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps: ?With God?s help the time has come for the Zionist regime?s death sentence.? (2008)

Mohammad Hassan Rahimian, Khamenei?s representative to the Moustazafan Foundation: ?We have manufactured missiles that allow us, when necessary to replace [sic] Israel in its entirety with a big holocaust.? (2010)

Mohammad Reza Naqdi, the commander of the Basij paramilitary force: ?We recommend them [the Zionists] to pack their furniture and return to their countries. And if they insist on staying, they should know that a time while arrive when they will not even have time to pack their suitcases.? (2011)


Khamenei: ?The Zionist regime is a cancerous tumor and it will be removed.? (2012)

Ahmad Alamolhoda, a member of the Assembly of Experts: ?The destruction of Israel is the idea of the Islamic Revolution in Iran and is one of the pillars of the Iranian Islamic regime. We cannot claim that we have no intention of going to war with Israel.? (2013)

Nasrallah: ?The elimination of Israel is not only a Palestinian interest. It is the interest of the entire Muslim world and the entire Arab world.? (2013)

Hojateleslam Alireza Panahian, the advisor to Office of the Supreme Leader in Universities: ?The day will come when the Islamic people in the region will destroy Israel and save the world from this Zionist base.? (2013)

Hojatoleslam Ali Shirazi, Khamenei?s representative in the Revolutionary Guard: ?The Zionist regime will soon be destroyed, and this generation will be witness to its destruction." (2013)

Khamenei: ?This barbaric, wolflike & infanticidal regime of Israel which spares no crime has no cure but to be annihilated.? (2014)

Hossein Salami, the deputy head of the Revolutionary Guard: "We will chase you [Israelis] house to house and will take revenge for every drop of blood of our martyrs in Palestine, and this is the beginning point of Islamic nations awakening for your defeat." (2014)

Salami: "Today we are aware of how the Zionist regime is slowly being erased from the world, and indeed, soon, there will be no such thing as the Zionist regime on Planet Earth." (2014)

Hossein Sheikholeslam, the secretary-general of the Committee for Support for the Palestinian Intifada: "The issue of Israel's destruction is important, no matter the method. We will obviously implement the strategy of the Imam Khomeini and the Leader [Khamenei] on the issue of destroying the Zionists. The region will not be quiet so long as Israel exists in it ..." (2014)

Mohammad Ali Jafari, the commander-in-chief of the Revolutionary Guard: "The Revolutionary Guards will fight to the end of the Zionist regime ... We will not rest easy until this epitome of vice is totally deleted from the region's geopolitics." (2015)

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/03/Iranian-View-of-Israel/387085/

I also got a kick out of your comment about Iranians voting for their president - in rigged elections for a powerless figure head. Talk about free society...

I don't think "consider the source" is the most effective counter argument, but in this case, take a look at some of the other crap Jeffrey Goldberg has written. he's hardly an unbiased author here. if his cheerleading of the Iraq War is any example, it's that he's not really a very credible person.

I don't know if anyone has taken the time to refute every quote in your list, and I don't have the time to on my own, so you win the "cut and paste battle" here, but at least one of your quotes, the "wipe Israel off the map" one, is based on a complete mistranslation of the original statement: "...specialists such as Juan Cole of the University of Michigan and Arash Norouzi of the Mossadegh Project pointed out that the original statement in Persian did not say that Israel should be wiped from the map, but instead that it would collapse."

And I shouldn't have to point it out, but of course, these quotes are only related to Israel, which is not the United States of America, nor is it "the whole world," and of course, American and Israeli politicians have also consitently called for attacks on or the destruction of Iran (here's one prominent example, but a simple bing or google search will reveal at least dozens more unique examples), and so have the Saudis, so I don't see that this empty war of words by itself proves that somehow Iran is a rogue nation, or unique threat to world peace.

sorry to interrupt "hate hour"... back to your regularly scheduled nationalist, jingoist hate of our latest Hitler of the Day.

 

[Michchamp]

Quds Day, 7-10-15:

You know the axiomatic saying about pictures. And we all know the "urgency" which with Iraninan leadership suppresses public demonstrations that it finds objectionable.

oh, they burned a flag? horrible...

GLASS PARKING LOT!

 

[byco42]

oh, they burned a flag? horrible...

GLASS PARKING LOT!

They, and a few million other Iranian citizens with a like mindset who support this act. And its leadership:

“People will tell the world on the Quds Day that the Muslim nations will never forget Palestine and the occupation of this territory,” Rouhani said, stressing that the Iranian nation “will shout its hatred for the Zionists on the Quds Day.”

 

[Michchamp]

I don't believe that whole "us vs. them" and "they're fundamentally different than you or I" argument either, for what it's worth. It's been used to justify pretty much every war in history, and could be said about any country on Earth in relation to another.

just like the views of the avg. racist Texan shouldn't be used to justify criticisms of the United States, the views of a handful of nutjobs there shouldn't be considered representative of the whole.

Iran has 77 MM people! It's a big country. This is more than twice as many as Iraq. I'm guessing our views (warped as they are by our media) of life on the ground there are similarly inaccurate. But whatever... go on believing the avg. Iranian is some robot that spends every waking minute clamoring for the destruction of Israel. dehumanizing others is fun. not very Christian though, Christians...

 

[Spartanmack]

I don't think "consider the source" is the most effective counter argument, but in this case, take a look at some of the other crap Jeffrey Goldberg has written. he's hardly an unbiased author here. if his cheerleading of the Iraq War is any example, it's that he's not really a very credible person.

I don't know if anyone has taken the time to refute every quote in your list, and I don't have the time to on my own, so you win the "cut and paste battle" here, but at least one of your quotes, the "wipe Israel off the map" one, is based on a complete mistranslation of the original statement: "...specialists such as Juan Cole of the University of Michigan and Arash Norouzi of the Mossadegh Project pointed out that the original statement in Persian did not say that Israel should be wiped from the map, but instead that it would collapse."

And I shouldn't have to point it out, but of course, these quotes are only related to Israel, which is not the United States of America, nor is it "the whole world," and of course, American and Israeli politicians have also consitently called for attacks on or the destruction of Iran (here's one prominent example, but a simple bing or google search will reveal at least dozens more unique examples), and so have the Saudis, so I don't see that this empty war of words by itself proves that somehow Iran is a rogue nation, or unique threat to world peace.

sorry to interrupt "hate hour"... back to your regularly scheduled nationalist, jingoist hate of our latest Hitler of the Day.

They're quotes, that's all I took from the piece. Are you saying Goldberg made them up?

And what have I said that is so hateful? Talk about smoke and mirrors. Are you going to call me a racist again and pretend like that means you've won an argument we're not having - again?

 

[byco42]

I don't believe that whole "us vs. them" and "they're fundamentally different than you or I" argument either, for what it's worth. It's been used to justify pretty much every war in history, and could be said about any country on Earth in relation to another.

And, if you know anything about me, you know that I know that we are all members on One Body.

just like the views of the avg. racist Texan shouldn't be used to justify criticisms of the United States, the views of a handful of nutjobs there shouldn't be considered representative of the whole.

When things get ugly, people have no choice but to gravitate to the extremes. That is also a proven historical axiom.

Iran has 77 MM people! It's a big country. This is more than twice as many as Iraq. I'm guessing our views (warped as they are by our media) of life on the ground there are similarly inaccurate. But whatever... go on believing the avg. Iranian is some robot that spends every waking minute clamoring for the destruction of Israel. dehumanizing others is fun. not very Christian though, Christians...

Please discontinue the practice of reading my mind. I'm focusing on two things that I have made crystal clear, and that you did not address, as I see it: Iranian leadership will suppress with extreme prejudice any public demonstration that it considers subversive. It actually turned out to witness these demonstrations.

 

[Michchamp]

I just read this:
$2 gas will be back after Iran nuclear deal.


Boy, are Republitards ever going to be pissed... this is like a bunch of their worst nightmares coming to fruition.

 

[Spartanmack]

I just read this:
$2 gas will be back after Iran nuclear deal.


Boy, are Republitards ever going to be pissed... this is like a bunch of their worst nightmares coming to fruition.

You have it backwards - conservatives like when competition drives prices down. But even if you didn't get it completely wrong in yet another unhinged rant, they wouldn't be half as pissed as you climate alarmists are going to be when you see gas guzzling truck sales skyrocket.