Is there a republican Dems would vote for over Hillary?

[tinselwolverine]

if he wants to live in a theocracy, where the laws of the state are used to further the interests of religion, he should move to Saudi Arabia.

Really?

After all that, that's the fucking punchline?

Now, to be fair to you, that punchline might have worked better if byco had mixed in a Jewish baker and a Methodist Baker along with the Catholic Baker.

 

[byco42]

Really?

After all that, that's the fucking punchline?

Now, to be fair to you, that punchline might have worked better if byco had mixed in a Jewish baker and a Methodist Baker along with the Catholic Baker.

MC has a particular unbridled hatred for Catholics, that is not reciprocated.

 

[Sbee]

MC has a particular unbridled hatred for Catholics, that is not reciprocated.

I believe his hatred is more for the institution of the catholic church, not all practicing catholics. there's a big distinction there

 

[Gulo Blue]

A Satanist walks into a bakery shoppe owned by a Catholic. "I want a cake that says 'Jesus Christ is dead,'" says the Satanist.

A gay married couple walk into a bakery shoppe owned by a Catholic and want a birthday cake for their son.

A gay engaged couple walks into bakery shoppe owned by a Catholic and wants a wedding cake.

Which, if any, does the Catholic owner have the right to refuse?

Just the 1st one, I think.

You sell cakes, you can't decide who to sell them to based on their race or religion. But that doesn't mean you can use the process of cake making to make people do things they are opposed to. I don't think you could demand a bacon-topped cake from a Jewish baker or a cake with a picture of Mohammad on it from a Muslim baker. But just a cake or just a wedding cake...if that's what you sell, then you have to sell it to everyone. Maybe not everyone. I think you could refuse service for other things, like KKK membership, or if they insulted your mother, or if the cake is for a Nazi rally.

 

[byco42]

I believe his hatred is more for the institution of the catholic church, not all practicing catholics. there's a big distinction there

There is no distinction. That would be evident to anyone who understands what the Catholic Church is.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Or Buckeyes. I reserve the right to refuse service to Buckeyes at my discretion.

 

[tinselwolverine]

this is why America is great...he can refuse them all if he wants. Just like if an owner wants to decline to make an 9/11 anniversary cake with a picture of the twin towers falling.

Well about gay marriage and a religious person's choices there are civil rights arguments going in both directions.

To me this issue is mountains out of mole hills. My guess is the majority of business people in the United States want to do business with just about
Eeverybody they can. If the Baker doesn't want to bake a cake for a gay couples wedding, there are plenty of baker's who would be glad to do it.

I was first married a Catholic and then got divorced and then I married a Jewish woman. I would imagine somewhere on the planet or rather I should say somewhere in the country there might be someone who might have wished not to have done business for my second wedding based on any religious reasons.


If that happened I would've never made an issue of it. I would've just found another vendor.

 

[byco42]

Just the 1st one, I think.

You sell cakes, you can't decide who to sell them to based on their race or religion. But that doesn't mean you can use the process of cake making to make people do things they are opposed to. I don't think you could demand a bacon-topped cake from a Jewish baker or a cake with a picture of Mohammad on it from a Muslim baker. But just a cake or just a wedding cake...if that's what you sell, then you have to sell it to everyone. Maybe not everyone. I think you could refuse service for other things, like KKK membership, or if they insulted your mother, or if the cake is for a Nazi rally.

Can a Muslim refuse to make and sell a wedding cake to a Catholic who wants the cake to read: JN 3:16?

And a Catholic is compelled to sell a wedding cake to a same-sex couple, or face fines and jail time?

What if a woman comes into the same Catholic shoppe and says: "I want a cake to celebrate the anniversary of the abortion I had last year." Is that baker compelled to bake that cake?

 

[Sbee]

Well about gay marriage and a religious person's choices there are civil rights arguments going in both directions.

To me this issue is mountains out of mole hills. My guess is the majority of business people in the United States want to do business with just about
Eeverybody they can. If the Baker doesn't want to bake a cake for a gay couples wedding, there are plenty of baker's who would be glad to do it.

I was first married a Catholic and then got divorced and then I married a Jewish woman. I would imagine somewhere on the planet or rather I should say somewhere in the country there might be someone who might have wished not to have done business for my second wedding based on any religious reasons.


If that happened I would've never made an issue of it. I would've just found another vendor.

it's not just bakers, it's doctors.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/02/18/doctor-discrimination-baby/23642091/

 

[Sbee]

Can a Muslim refuse to make and sell a wedding cake to a Catholic who wants the cake to read: JN 3:16?

And a Catholic is compelled to sell a wedding cake to a same-sex couple, or face fines and jail time?

What if a woman comes into the same Catholic shoppe and says: "I want a cake to celebrate the anniversary of the abortion I had last year." Is that baker compelled to bake that cake?

the last one is pretty far fetched, after that first year, the woman is likely to be dead.

regardless, you shouldn't be able to legally discriminate against anyone based on race, gender, religion, or sexual orientation.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Can a Muslim refuse to make and sell a wedding cake to a Catholic who wants the cake to read: JN 3:16?

And a Catholic is compelled to sell a wedding cake to a same-sex couple, or face fines and jail time?

What if a woman comes into the same Catholic shoppe and says: "I want a cake to celebrate the anniversary of the abortion I had last year." Is that baker compelled to bake that cake?

Thing 1) Yes, I think he can refuse. I think the baker has to bake a cake similar to other wedding cakes he provides to others. You can't declare it to me a wedding cake and then ask the Jewish baker for a bacon-toppped wedding cake.

Thing 2) You cannot discriminate for race, religion, or sexual orientation. That doesn't mean you have to follow novel requests, like bacon and Mohammad pictures, you just have to serve everyone what you normally serve others.

Thing 3) Abortion is not race, religion, or orientation, so I think, yes, you can say no to the abortion cake.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Here's a list of protected classes:

Race – Civil Rights Act of 1964
Color – Civil Rights Act of 1964
Religion – Civil Rights Act of 1964
National origin – Civil Rights Act of 1964
Age (40 and over) – Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967
Sex – Equal Pay Act of 1963 and Civil Rights Act of 1964
The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission includes discrimination based on gender presentation and sexual orientation as protected beneath the class of 'sex'[2]
Pregnancy – Pregnancy Discrimination Act
Citizenship – Immigration Reform and Control Act
Familial status – Civil Rights Act of 1968 Title VIII: Housing cannot discriminate for having children, with an exception for senior housing
Disability status – Rehabilitation Act of 1973 and Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990
Veteran status – Vietnam Era Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act of 1974 and Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act
Genetic information – Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act

I don't see "alma mater" on the list - tough luck Buckeyes.

 

[byco42]

Thing 1) Yes, I think he can refuse. I think the baker has to bake a cake similar to other wedding cakes he provides to others. You can't declare it to me a wedding cake and then ask the Jewish baker for a bacon-toppped wedding cake.

A Muslim can refuse to make a Catholic a cake that says JN 3:16 on it? And then your very next statement is ...

Thing 2) You cannot discriminate for race, religion, or sexual orientation. That doesn't mean you have to follow novel requests, like bacon and Mohammad pictures, you just have to serve everyone what you normally serve others.

Wedding cakes are often bespoke.

Thing 3) Abortion is not race, religion, or orientation, so I think, yes, you can say no to the abortion cake.

Abortion is the law of the land. Some would claim it would be discriminatory to refuse women who want to celebrate their legal and constitutional right to choose to have one.

 

[Spartanmack]

Given that logic, it's within the rights of a business owner to not serve black people, they just have the right to go somewhere else.

taken to the extreme, I guess that's true but it's still a ridiculous statement. I'm not aware of any religion or institution that seeks to protect the sanctity of whiteness (other than the Democratic party and Planned Parenthood, that is). can you site an example of someone claiming anti-racial discrimination laws violate their rights to religious freedom?

Being for people's freedom to decide who they do business with and getting the government out of institutions they have no business being in isn't a pro-discrimination position. Calling people racist or homophobic because they don't want the government overstepping its bounds and running everyones lives is nonsense. but that's what you have to do - you know you're wrong about the government's role here so you have to villainize your opponent and claim a false sense of moral superiority in order to think you won the argument. Of course you throw in little factoids like fake libertarian Gary Johnson supports forcing the baker to sell the cake so you think it's a libertarian position. It's not libertarian and neither is Gary Johnson or his running mate.

 

[Gulo Blue]

A Muslim can refuse to make a Catholic a cake that says JN 3:16 on it? And then your very next statement is ...



Wedding cakes are often bespoke.



Abortion is the law of the land. Some would claim it would be discriminatory to refuse women who want to celebrate their legal and constitutional right to choose to have one.

The Muslim baker has to make the Catholic a typical wedding cake. But if the Catholic asks for things on the wedding cake the Muslim baker typically doesn't do, the Muslim baker doesn't have to make those specific additions.

Abortion is the law of the land, but unless the baker is discriminating for some protected reason, I think the baker is free to reserve the right to refuse service for any other reason.

 

[Gulo Blue]

The word discrimination just means choosing. It's not that you can't offend or you have to fulfill every religious request someone makes of you. You onlu have perform your normal service that you provide everybody else, no more than that, and while you are free to refuse even your regular service to specific individuals for many reasons, you can't choose (discriminate) based on them belonging to one of the protected classes.

 

[Spartanmack]

The word discrimination just means choosing. It's not that you can't offend or you have to fulfill every religious request someone makes of you. You onlu have perform your normal service that you provide everybody else, no more than that, and while you are free to refuse even your regular service to specific individuals for many reasons, you can't choose (discriminate) based on them belonging to one of the protected classes.

technical nit here - other than in employment, people of various sexual orientations aren't a protected class in federal law. There are a number of state laws that preclude discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

Edit - did the Supreme Court decision apply only to marriage or did it create another protected class for sexual orientation more broadly?

 

[Gulo Blue]

technical nit here - other than in employment, people of various sexual orientations aren't a protected class in federal law. There are a number of state laws that preclude discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

That's a good point. I don't know if there are any additional classes in specific states either. I wouldn't be too surprised to find that California prohibits discrimination on the basis of diet, exercise regimen, or fashion preference.

You know what's not on the list? Political affiliation. Could you imagine if we get even more polarized than we currently are and people decided to start restricting their services based on voting?

 

[sggatecl]

To the OPs original question, I'd vote for Kacish over HRC in a heartbeat. (Should be noted that I'm not a democrat but lean a little left)

the last one is pretty far fetched, after that first year, the woman is likely to be dead.

lol...Brilliant. :lmao: :cheers:

 

[tinselwolverine]

it's not just bakers, it's doctors.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/02/18/doctor-discrimination-baby/23642091/

Wow. According to the article, this doctor went back on an agreement she had made with the couple in full knowledge of the couples status.

That's pretty crappy; they have a right to be pissed off.