Jose Valderde: Best ever?

[tycobb420]

http://patcaputo.blogspot.com/

Pat Caputo thinks so.

 

[jimrice]

Pretty much the dumbest thing I've ever read.

The "save" has made Valverde look better than he's actually been. I'm not knocking the guy, but his job is to get guys out and help the Tigers win, that includes tie games and close games when the Tigers are behind, too.

 

[tomdalton22]

so 2 years in Detroit qualify him to be the best ever? What a moron.

 

[lions2011]

so 2 years in Detroit qualify him to be the best ever? What a moron.

who you got ? John Hiller

 

[Mitchrapp]

Not sure about best ever but his sole purpose is saves. I don't care about ERA, WHIP, giving up two runs with a Three run lead etc. - he gets the saves. And in two years he's been pretty darn good.

 

[Rebbiv]

In 1973, when Hiller recorded 38 saves (under an old save rule), 16 of his appearances were 3 IP or more, resulting in 6 of the saves. 40 of his 65 appearances were multiple innings.

On July 22, 1973, he pitched 8.3 IP 1 ER 10 SO in a loss. He entered in the 2nd Inning with DET down 3-0. He was removed in the 10th inning, with 2 on, 1 out. Only have Bob Miller give up the game winning hit (walk off).


Hiller 1973-1974

124 G 112 GF 27-19 51 Saves 275.3 IP
92 Multi-Inning games 95 games with inherited runners


Valverde 2010-2011

126 G 117 GF 4-8 69 Saves 126.3 IP
7 Multi-Inning games 10 games with inherited runners

T. Jones 2006-2007

125 G 111 GF 3-10 75 saves 125.3 IP
8 Multi-Inning games 7 games with inherited runners

Henneman 1992-1993

123 G 103 GF 7-9 48 saves 149.0 IP
45 Multi-Inning games 38 games with inherited runners


Different eras. The current save rule took effect in 1975. It was the mid 90s before the concept of having a setup man and a closer.

 

[kalinecountry]

I posted the story this morning, and thought it was premature.
Players and pitchers should be on the team a few years 5/6/7 before annointing them as best or on an all time Tigers team.

 

[jimrice]

Mitch[/color]]Not sure about best ever but his sole purpose is saves. I don't care about ERA, WHIP, giving up two runs with a Three run lead etc. - he gets the saves. And in two years he's been pretty darn good.

Totally disagree. His sole purpose is to get big outs late, saves is a bullshit stat.

With your logic, Valverde going 1-2-3 in a ninth inning of a tie game is worse than giving up two runs in the ninth inning of a 5-2 game (5-4 after) and getting a "save". Ryan freaking Perry can handle a 3 run lead for an inning and have a decent save percentage.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Mitch[/color]]Not sure about best ever but his sole purpose is saves. I don't care about ERA, WHIP, giving up two runs with a Three run lead etc. - he gets the saves. And in two years he's been pretty darn good.

Totally disagree. His sole purpose is to get big outs late, saves is a bullshit stat.

With your logic, Valverde going 1-2-3 in a ninth inning of a tie game is worse than giving up two runs in the ninth inning of a 5-2 game (5-4 after) and getting a "save". Ryan freaking Perry can handle a 3 run lead for an inning and have a decent save percentage.

Who is talking tie games. And your little math test makes no sense. And if you take a look at wins and losses he's been 2-4, you sound like he's 0-10. And If you really think Perry would have a good save percentage well, I don't know what to think.

 

[jimrice]

Mitch[/color]]

Totally disagree. His sole purpose is to get big outs late, saves is a bullshit stat.

With your logic, Valverde going 1-2-3 in a ninth inning of a tie game is worse than giving up two runs in the ninth inning of a 5-2 game (5-4 after) and getting a "save". Ryan freaking Perry can handle a 3 run lead for an inning and have a decent save percentage.

Who is talking tie games. And your little math test makes no sense. And if you take a look at wins and losses he's been 2-4, you sound like he's 0-10. And If you really think Perry would have a good save percentage well, I don't know what to think.

Do you not read what you write? YOU said that saves are his sole purpose. I simply posted a reasonable scenario that makes your point look silly.

And yes, if Ryan Perry were to pitch the ninth inning of 3 run games, his save percentage would be near perfect. So would any ML pitcher's save percentage. They could conceivably have an 18.00 era and a perfect save percentage, which based on your example, would make them a great closer.

My point is the save is bullshit. Valverde has been good, probably approaching great, but the save is a garbage stat.

 

[Mitchrapp]

If he's coming in with a three run lead every game damn skippy. Sure I want 1 2 3. But if he gives up two and we won, I'm not saying - wtf, crap and hit my momma. He's done a very good job.

 

[tomdalton22]

The save is a over hyped stat. It is way to easy to get. Also, wins for relief pitchers. A guy throws one pitch and can get the win? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Mitchrapp]

ERA is most misleading.

 

[fedexgooch78]

look...every time this year he's taken the mound with the lead, he's finished with the lead. that's all i fucking care about. i don't give a goddamn about any of the fucking math problems some people get their heads wrapped around. he's gotten the outs when he needs to get them so he's more than fine by me...and i'm pretty sure that's what mitch is geting at. who gives 2 flying fucks if he gives up 2 runs in a 3 run lead and they win? do those 2 runs matter, fuck no. jesus f'n christ.

 

[tomdalton22]

look...every time this year he's taken the mound with the lead, he's finished with the lead. that's all i fucking care about. i don't give a goddamn about any of the fucking math problems some people get their heads wrapped around. he's gotten the outs when he needs to get them so he's more than fine by me...and i'm pretty sure that's what mitch is geting at. who gives 2 flying fucks if he gives up 2 runs in a 3 run lead and they win? do those 2 runs matter, fuck no. jesus f'n christ.

Fuck, shit, cock sucker (I just wanted everyone to know that I konw how to cuss too).

I do care that he gives up runs in a tie game....but that doesn't impact his "perfect save" season.

 

[food4thought]

The naysayers are pointing out his performance in non save situations, which includes a couple close games that he let get away. I think he's been great this year and hope he's back next year, but hope Leyland never puts him in unless it's a save situation (where he's been money this year).

 

[tomdalton22]

The naysayers are pointing out his performance in non save situations, which includes a couple close games that he let get away. I think he's been great this year and hope he's back next year, but hope Leyland never puts him in unless it's a save situation (where he's been money this year).

Well, that is a huge problem. The Tigers are a playoff team. If Valverde is their best relief pitcher he needs to be able to be successful in any situation that JL puts him in....and that includes non save situations.

 

[jimrice]

look...every time this year he's taken the mound with the lead, he's finished with the lead. that's all i fucking care about. i don't give a goddamn about any of the fucking math problems some people get their heads wrapped around. he's gotten the outs when he needs to get them so he's more than fine by me...and i'm pretty sure that's what mitch is geting at. who gives 2 flying fucks if he gives up 2 runs in a 3 run lead and they win? do those 2 runs matter, fuck no. jesus f'n christ.

Fuck, shit, cock sucker (I just wanted everyone to know that I konw how to cuss too).

I do care that he gives up runs in a tie game....but that doesn't impact his "perfect save" season.

Exactly. Not sure what is so controversial about wanting your marque reliever to pitch well in close games. He's been great, but if anyone thinks he's had a season close to 1984 Willie Hernandez, then they are out of their tree. That includes Caputo.

 

[mjsb2]

Saves is the worst stat in the game.

Worse than wins, worse than BA, worse than just about anything.

 

[Thumb]

Saves is the worst stat in the game.

Worse than wins, worse than BA, worse than just about anything.

OK, you have an argument to back this up?

Not that I'm disputing it, but you toss it out as if it's supposed to be the gospel, and the end of the story.