Leyland

[Slick]

Coke pitching to a RH with runners on 2nd and 3rd was inexcuseable....Leyland screwed the pooch on that one....3- 1 went to 5-1 and game over.

 

[gotime909]

Yes, I stated that.

Because Leyland does not hit, Leyland does not pitch.

So for him to give a game away, he would basically have to do something that went well above any pitching or hitting failures the team had.

So making a idiotic move in a close game late isn't part of losing a game?

 

[tonyballs]

Well shit Tony...which is it?

Leyland gave this game away or he didn't? Because you said he did, now you're saying that's not what you meant?

You guys responding to the post I made must not have read it well. I'm not now, and never really have defended Leyland, except when he gets blamed for things that are out of a managers control.

That's what this was all about, Managers don;t have the impact on games people think they do.

But if we had the 4 greatest MLB managers as a staff here, we probably are not that far from the record we have now, and that's because outside of Cabrera, Ajax, and Fielder, every single position player and DH we have had has either underperformed or flat out sucked.

Verlander has been Verlander.

Fister was hurt for half a season.

Scherzer and Porcello for the most of the year have had ERA's closer to 5 than 4.

We traded for someone who can't pitch outside of Miami. [bonus his name is Anna belle - tee hee]

Valverde has been terrible, and blow a ton of saves.

Coke forgot how to pitch to RHB's, and in turn is forgetting how to pitch LHB's.

Benoit went from being horrible, to being un-hittable, to every ball that came out of his hands landed in the outfield bleachers.

Dotel is about to apply for S.S.

We have had a smattering of rookies in the bullpen who were impressive at times, and gas cans at others.

We have bench players that would still be bench players in AAA...

And yet were still in a playoff hunt, and I think it has very little to do with the manager, for good or bad.

Which is it?? It's a combination of things why we lost. I agreed with you that Leyland wasn't the only reason why we lost tonight. You went as far to say that Leyland wasn't to blame AT ALL. Great...that's all you.

Let's go over this one more time...real quick like

1) Leyland brings in Coke Vs the Lefty hitter

2) Coke gets the lefty hitter (awesome)

Here it is.....pay attention...

3) Leyland leaves Coke in vs the righty? Wait a minute, isn't Coke a situational pitcher vs lefties? Strap up your chin straps, ladies and germs and let's see what happens next.

4) Matrionni gets a hit vs Coke and makes it 5-1 ...lol. Who knew?!?! Not Leyland!!!

5) The Twins start pulling away from our beloved Tigers amnd make it 8-1 or 9-1 ( i forget..sorry). Making the game a wash at this point. Thanks, Jim and thank you offense or lack there of. See what i did there?

6) Tigers make a splash and score 2 more, making it 8-3 or 9-3 at this point. Where it could have possibly been a tie game at that point if Coke gets pulled vs the righty. Get it?

7) Back to (3) If Leyland pulls Coke like any competent manager would at this point and brings in a righty, maybe just MAYBE he gets out of it. Meaning, it's a possibility the Tigers don't get down 5-1. BUT then the Twins pile on -3-4 more runs making it unreachable at that point.

A lot to blame for tonight. Piss poor offense, terrible pitching from the Tigers and a terrible, terrible job at managing a ballclub by Jim.

 

[tonyballs]

Yes, I stated that.

Because Leyland does not hit, Leyland does not pitch.

So for him to give a game away, he would basically have to do something that went well above any pitching or hitting failures the team had.

I love this excuse...lol. Leyland doesn't hit or pitch, so therefore, IT'S NOT HIS FAULT.

Fn classic.

 

[tomdalton22]

I love this excuse...lol. Leyland doesn't hit or pitch, so therefore, IT'S NOT HIS FAULT.

Fn classic.

The bottom line is that for the most part it is the truth. Wins and losses are mostly on the players. The manager has some impact but very little. If I were to break it down I would say responsibility for wins and losses would go like this

Players - 85%
GM - 10%
Manager - 5%

I put the GM higher than the manager because he is the one responsible for signing the likes of Coke, trading for Anibel "dirty" Sanchez, having BB and DY as every day players, etc.

 

[thehippo73]

Get me Terry Francona next year and I will be happy.

 

[hellifino]

what is funny, is how on one hand some of you say that a manger doesn't win games or loses them... but then you will go on to say how shitty Trammell etc. was because they couldn't win.
everyone of those shitty managers did the best they could with what was given to them, and not one of them had anywhere near the type of talent Smoker has had.if they did, they'd prolly still be here.


Smoker is gone if we don't make the playoffs guranfuckingteed

 

[Thumb]

what is funny, is how on one hand some of you say that a manger doesn't win games or loses them... but then you will go on to say how shitty Trammell etc. was because they couldn't win.
everyone of those shitty managers did the best they could with what was given to them, and not one of them had anywhere near the type of talent Smoker has had.if they did, they'd prolly still be here.


Smoker is gone if we don't make the playoffs guranfuckingteed

I have yet to have seen a single person say Trammell was "shitty" because he couldn't win.

But you're right in some respects, a managers record will only be as good as the team he has to work with, and that backs my point perfectly.

Ron Gardenhire is a perfect example, he's considered one of the better managers, yet he went from having a very good group of players, to having Mauer and the misfits, and the record reflects that. A manager is only as good as the product he can put on the field.

And I do believe anything short of an ALCS run will be the end of Leylands tenure as Tigers manager, and I could care less either way.

 

[mjsb2]

The bottom line is that for the most part it is the truth. Wins and losses are mostly on the players. The manager has some impact but very little. If I were to break it down I would say responsibility for wins and losses would go like this

Players - 85%
GM - 10%
Manager - 5%

I put the GM higher than the manager because he is the one responsible for signing the likes of Coke, trading for Anibel "dirty" Sanchez, having BB and DY as every day players, etc.

I'd say the GM has much more responsibility than that.

 

[mjsb2]

I have yet to have seen a single person say Trammell was "shitty" because he couldn't win.

But you're right in some respects, a managers record will only be as good as the team he has to work with, and that backs my point perfectly.

Ron Gardenhire is a perfect example, he's considered one of the better managers, yet he went from having a very good group of players, to having Mauer and the misfits, and the record reflects that. A manager is only as good as the product he can put on the field.

And I do believe anything short of an ALCS run will be the end of Leylands tenure as Tigers manager, and I could care less either way.

Gardenhire is a lousy manager.

That was evident even when the Twins were very good.

 

[jmakula87]

A couple things I question about Leyland: Why does he continue to bring in Coke, and why did he bat Delmon in the 5 spot for over half the year? He likes to use players in the spot where they succeed, but Delmon wasn't succeeding all year in that spot.

I think those are the kinds of things that really get on our nerves on this board. And maybe nobody else would be better to be in that 5 hole, but combined with DY's defense, it is just a painful mess to see him not only butcher the field, but also GIDP or just never get on base.

 

[jmakula87]

Get me Terry Francona next year and I will be happy.

Maybe...I will say that at least JL seems to command respect, and maybe not all the credit can go to him, but we never seem to have major clubhouse problems. Maybe Francona became a little jaded after being in Boston for a while, but those things that came out about what took place in the clubhouse are not good.

 

[thehippo73]

Maybe...I will say that at least JL seems to command respect, and maybe not all the credit can go to him, but we never seem to have major clubhouse problems. Maybe Francona became a little jaded after being in Boston for a while, but those things that came out about what took place in the clubhouse are not good.

I think most of that stuff in Boston goes on in most MLB clubhouses. Do you think Miggy waited until he left the clubhouse before beginning his night out? Do you think Delmon hasn't made a few hundred sandwiches as an appetizer? Francona would command as much respect, if not more, as the Smoker.

 

[servinthed]

I think most of that stuff in Boston goes on in most MLB clubhouses. Do you think Miggy waited until he left the clubhouse before beginning his night out? Do you think Delmon hasn't made a few hundred sandwiches as an appetizer? Francona would command as much respect, if not more, as the Smoker.

That is all speculation, and how can you say that Francona would command as much respect, if not more than Leyland? How do you know? I'm not saying Leyland is a great manager or anything, but why are people so caught up in Terry Francona? He did not have much control over his team in Boston, and who says he could do a better job than Leyland?

 

[tonyballs]

The bottom line is that for the most part it is the truth. Wins and losses are mostly on the players. The manager has some impact but very little. If I were to break it down I would say responsibility for wins and losses would go like this

Players - 85%
GM - 10%
Manager - 5%

I put the GM higher than the manager because he is the one responsible for signing the likes of Coke, trading for Anibel "dirty" Sanchez, having BB and DY as every day players, etc.

I realize the players play the game but to say the manager has little impact is laughable. Especially when we have a fn chimpanzee as our skipper. He's a joke of a manager with his fucked up lineups, playing guys that don't deserve to play everyday, sitting guys that deserve to play and making HORRENDOUS decisions on our bullpen situation game in and game out. You sit there though and say he's not that responsible for outcomes of games. I don't buy it for a fn second, bro...

 

[tomdalton22]

I realize the players play the game but to say the manager has little impact is laughable. Especially when we have a fn chimpanzee as our skipper. He's a joke of a manager with his fucked up lineups, playing guys that don't deserve to play everyday, sitting guys that deserve to play and making HORRENDOUS decisions on our bullpen situation game in and game out. You sit there though and say he's not that responsible for outcomes of games. I don't buy it for a fn second, bro...

That's your opinion. The bull pen is garbage....it doesn't matter who they have hitting 5-9....they all suck most of the time. There isn't a player on the bench that deserves playing time....they all suck too. As far as managing the bull pen...I would love to see less of Phil Coke but the rest of the pen has sucked too. There is a great chance that one of the other crappy relievers gives up 3 runs in last nights game. Hell....one did!

 

[tonyballs]

That's your opinion. The bull pen is garbage....it doesn't matter who they have hitting 5-9....they all suck most of the time. There isn't a player on the bench that deserves playing time....they all suck too. As far as managing the bull pen...I would love to see less of Phil Coke but the rest of the pen has sucked too. There is a great chance that one of the other crappy relievers gives up 3 runs in last nights game. Hell....one did!

My opinion and TONS of others as well. I'm not alone on an island on this.

Leyland's a clown and you know it..

 

[tomdalton22]

My opinion and TONS of others as well. I'm not alone on an island on this.

Leyland's a clown and you know it..

At this point in his career he is an average Manager and that's about it. The best "in game" manager in MLB wouldn't do much more with this team. Over the course of a year the record wouldn't be much different. Some moves work and others don't. Bottom line is Leyland is far from the biggest problem with this team.

 

[Thumb]

At this point in his career he is an average Manager and that's about it. The best "in game" manager in MLB wouldn't do much more with this team. Over the course of a year the record wouldn't be much different. Some moves work and others don't. Bottom line is Leyland is far from the biggest problem with this team.

I agree with this 100%, but will point out "Leyland" is not really just one guy here...it's Smokes, Fat Ass Gene, Wimpy Jones, and 'Legendary' Lloyd.

It's odd to see a managers whole staff as disliked as himself by so many.

 

[boogerlovejoy]

I realize the players play the game but to say the manager has little impact is laughable. Especially when we have a fn chimpanzee as our skipper. He's a joke of a manager with his fucked up lineups, playing guys that don't deserve to play everyday, sitting guys that deserve to play and making HORRENDOUS decisions on our bullpen situation game in and game out. You sit there though and say he's not that responsible for outcomes of games. I don't buy it for a fn second, bro...

Every manager has to play people that aren't performing from time to time. EVERY manager. If you want to believe it or not, it happens.....even to the legends. It's not completely on Leyland. The front office of every team has a huge say on the 25 man roster.

As far as the line-ups go. I don't blame him for giving Young a long look in the 5 spot. Young didn't perform.....but who would you have put there??? Boesch....nope. Avila......nope. Jhonny......LOL??? Santiago? Laird? Worth? Inge? Kelley? WHO? What were Leyland's other options this year????

The same thing goes for 6th....7th.....8th and 9th too. It's a complete disaster from 5 down. Has been all year!!