Matthew Stafford comes in as No. 9 QB in NFL

[tomdalton22]

Do you think the teams defense has anything to do with those games needing to be comeback wins?

for sure, but I also agree with Mitch in some respect. I do remember a lot of Mondays that we talked about a 4th quarter comeback that was needed because Matt shit the bed in the first 1/2

 

[LKP]

Defense shit the bed. Run game shitt the bed..weapons shit the bed. Oline shit bed..coaching shit the bed..stafford rarely shits the bed

 

[boogerlovejoy]

By watching the games I've seen him stink it up for much of the game to having a drive for a winning FG. Overall he had a bad game but won it in the end. I'll give him some credit we did win. Why do you think those top guys didn't have more its because they were ahead in the 4th and didn't need a comeback. And because of that its hard to think Matt is as good as Elway with 4th quarter comebacks. Context.

Do you think a teams defense has anything to do with "context".

I don't care at all if you don't like Stafford.....to each their own on that.....but when it comes to 4th quarter comebacks.....its not true.

Of the 165 games Stafford has played in we have a 74-90-1 record. That's not good. Nobody argues that. I think we would have won FAR fewer games with a "league average" quarterback over that same span with the same team. I believe he has WON us games but because the overall record is still bad very few people think of him as a winning QB. A lot like Marino after '84. Marino was still great, but the teams around him were garbage.

2020 is a great example. 5-11. But without him.....this is a 1 win team AT BEST. He does single handedly win us games....but becasue he can't beat really good teams by himself this board vilifies him for it. He's not Rodgers or Mahomes......but for fucks sake....average??

I can't agree with that

 

[Mitchrapp]

By the way in 2016-17 where he had 8 comeback wins the team was 13th in defense points per game. So it wasn't the typical Lions D.

 

[Mitchrapp]

1 win team 5 win team who cares. So he's better than Daniels, woah.

 

[boogerlovejoy]

for sure, but I also agree with Mitch in some respect. I do remember a lot of Mondays that we talked about a 4th quarter comeback that was needed because Matt shit the bed in the first 1/2

Nobody wins them all. And yes, there are certainly Monday's that go by that I also talk about a missed throw here, or an int there really hurt or even cost us a game. But at the same time, this team might only be in that situation to win because #9 put us there in the first place.

There is only ONE reason this 2020 team won 5 games this year. Matthew Stafford.

Just my opinion.

 

[tomdalton22]

Nobody wins them all. And yes, there are certainly Monday's that go by that I also talk about a missed throw here, or an int there really hurt or even cost us a game. But at the same time, this team might only be in that situation to win because #9 put us there in the first place.

There is only ONE reason this 2020 team won 5 games this year. Matthew Stafford.

Just my opinion.

I agree...he was the best player on the team this year, and almost every other year since Calvin left. However, he isn't one of those transcendent, elite quarterbacks. He is just above average when compared to his peers (starting NFL QBs). The Lions can continue to be mediocre with him, or they can trade him and build a team. IMO, keeping Matt around & paying him $40M a year when his contract is up, will just lead to more mediocre results.

 

[Mitchrapp]

And we've had no QB who could challenge him. Its easy to say without him we'd be much worse when we have a career backup as the alternative. Quinn was worst than Million, easy.

 

[LKP]

And we've had no QB who could challenge him. Its easy to say without him we'd be much worse when we have a career backup as the alternative. Quinn was worst than Million, easy.

Remember when Millen added Jeff Garcia to "challenge" Joey Harrington and that caused the Lions to pass on Aaron Rodgers in 2005. You should. And also take a 3rd WR in Mike Williams that same year to help Harrington/Garcia instead of Rodgers or Demarcus Ware (also James Hall 10 sack 2004 season)

So many QBs would have lost that challenge to Stafford. Especially where the Lions were picking (later in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018). Herbert and Tua would have lost that challenge too. Tua looks so awful and based on draft rankings, that is probably the pick over Herbert. And Stafford had a great 2017 season, no way they take Lamar Jackson in 2018. And Jackson is more runner than passer by far and gets a ton of support to win in Baltimore.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Remember when Millen added Jeff Garcia to "challenge" Joey Harrington and that caused the Lions to pass on Aaron Rodgers in 2005. You should. And also take a 3rd WR in Mike Williams that same year to help Harrington/Garcia instead of Rodgers or Demarcus Ware (also James Hall 10 sack 2004 season)

So many QBs would have lost that challenge to Stafford. Especially where the Lions were picking (later in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018). Herbert and Tua would have lost that challenge too. Tua looks so awful and based on draft rankings, that is probably the pick over Herbert. And Stafford had a great 2017 season, no way they take Lamar Jackson in 2018. And Jackson is more runner than passer by far and gets a ton of support to win in Baltimore.

So what you're saying is Stafford is the best QB ever?

 

[tomdalton22]

Remember when Millen added Jeff Garcia to "challenge" Joey Harrington and that caused the Lions to pass on Aaron Rodgers in 2005. You should. And also take a 3rd WR in Mike Williams that same year to help Harrington/Garcia instead of Rodgers or Demarcus Ware (also James Hall 10 sack 2004 season)

There are dozens and dozens moves that Lions GMs have screwed up. Look at these consecutive first round picks.

#3 Harrington #2 Charles Rogers, #7 Roy Williams, #10 Mike Williams #9 Ernie Sims

 

[LKP]

Yep and then look at Decker good LT, Davis bust switching schemes, Ragnow all pro, Hock very good/pro bowler, Okudah TBD. Quin did well in Round 1. Problems on day 2 and then FA in 2020 (Trufant (injury), Shelton (some injury), Nick Williams (some injuury), Vaitai (injuries again) all big fails, Collins not worth the money but solid, Harmon good trade). And Patricia was his downfall making him get slower players that "fit" the scheme

 

[Mitchrapp]

If you look at 1st round picks even well before Stafford they go offense on almost all of them the past 20 years. No wonder our defense is so bad.

 

[LKP]

If you look at 1st round picks even well before Stafford they go offense on almost all of them the past 20 years. No wonder our defense is so bad.

Quinn did 3 offense, 2 defense in Round 1
Mayhew 6 offense (Stafford, Best (trade up), Pettigrew, Ebron, Reiff, Laken) and 3 defense (Suh, Fairley, Ziggy)
Neither of them took a WR. Mayhew had Calvin though and added Tate. Quinn did Marvin FA and Golladay plus Amendola FA last 3 seasons. And of course Hock who is good

It's not number of 1st round picks. It's hitting on picks on day 1, 2, and 3 bringing in smart FAs at the right price, making good trades and then it is still up to coaches to make it work.

Trufant, Vaitai, Shelton, Nick Williams all can be good players. It didn't work out for various reason. Injury being a big one for the first 2. Nobody knew Trufants hamstrings would just blow up. And Vaitai would get a bad foot injury in camp

 

[Mitchrapp]

At one time I thought we were hole-less.

 

[LKP]

At one time I thought we were hole-less.

Going in looked good on paper. Injuries galore to big time players. Okudah rookie play plus injuries (and was supposed to be more of a slam dunk good CB), Walker regressed big time, Tavai was actually better as a rookie at least decent but awful in 2020, Ragland more run D but had to cover and blitz way too much, Davis showed blitzing but they limited him there in 2020, Collins and Harmon good adds though Collins overpaid, Shelton and Williams had injuries but were up and down. Hand solid but injuries yet again (missed 6 games). Flowers big time injury (9 games) hurt this team. Romeo Okwara nice year. Other Okwara and Bryant injuries hurts potential there. Trufant hamstring basically all year and did well the little stretch he played mid-season. Vaitai hurt a ton too which caused Oline to fluctuate. Aboushi actually had a solid grade. Jackson solid but a rookie and wore down last 6 games or so. Decker and Ragnow really good. Crosby solid 12 games but was up and down. Hock really good. James did more this year actually. Coleman injury then meh. Griffen nice trade add but not enough. AO took a step back even after showing flashes in 2019.

Flowers/Golladay/Trufant healthy all year it's a different season.

Thing fell apart with bad coaching and taking slower players and injuries.

Then throw in Stafford injuries (3 of them), Swift injuries and a last second change to Peterson (due to Scarborough injury) and things didn't gel in the run game as many thought they would. And of course refs in Week 17 too.

Injuries plus bad coaching is a disaster on defense. Golladay out changes the offense.

5 wins could have been 10 but they didnt' execute, got hurt and refs wanted to give Vikings Week 17

 

[dtroitlionsfan951]

Quinn did 3 offense, 2 defense in Round 1
Mayhew 6 offense (Stafford, Best (trade up), Pettigrew, Ebron, Reiff, Laken) and 3 defense (Suh, Fairley, Ziggy)
Neither of them took a WR. Mayhew had Calvin though and added Tate. Quinn did Marvin FA and Golladay plus Amendola FA last 3 seasons. And of course Hock who is good

It's not number of 1st round picks. It's hitting on picks on day 1, 2, and 3 bringing in smart FAs at the right price, making good trades and then it is still up to coaches to make it work.

Trufant, Vaitai, Shelton, Nick Williams all can be good players. It didn't work out for various reason. Injury being a big one for the first 2. Nobody knew Trufants hamstrings would just blow up. And Vaitai would get a bad foot injury in camp

This is where you try too hard. You list a bunch of depth players and say they can be good players. We paid all of them to be starters, they aren?t starter caliber. Nick Williams was literally a one year wonder who had a few cleanup sacks for the bears at like 30 years old. Vaitai?! Seriously man, he was ridiculously overpaid, he showed no track record of being a starting capable player when he did play, his pass blocking has always been abysmal and you can?t be a a starting tackle in the league if you can?t somewhat pass block. The contract they gave him was ridiculous especially when you look at what Jack Conklin got for the browns. Danny Shelton is what he is, a rotational run stuffer. Desmond Trufant hasn?t been healthy for years, and when he did play was definitely not a number 1 capable corner for about 3-5 years. The reason Patricia and Quinn failed were because their player acquisition was awful. They shipped out talented players for garbage and replaced them with nothing. They were so far gone from reality it was ridiculous. Jahlani Tavai? Like what is that?

 

[grandy]

If you look at 1st round picks even well before Stafford they go offense on almost all of them the past 20 years. No wonder our defense is so bad.

The few first round D picks weren?t even that good.

2020 - Okudah
2017 - Davis
2013 - Ansah
2011 - Fairley
2010 - Suh
2006 - Sims

Suh was the only pick that worked out (more of a no-brainer pick though), Okudah TBD. The rest either couldn?t stay healthy or play well consistently.


It?s sad looking through the draft history. Unless I missed somebody, the Lions drafted 43 players from 2010-2015 and not a single one is still on the team, most might not even be in the league anymore.

 

[LKP]

This is where you try too hard. You list a bunch of depth players and say they can be good players. We paid all of them to be starters, they aren’t starter caliber. Nick Williams was literally a one year wonder who had a few cleanup sacks for the bears at like 30 years old. Vaitai?! Seriously man, he was ridiculously overpaid, he showed no track record of being a starting capable player when he did play, his pass blocking has always been abysmal and you can’t be a a starting tackle in the league if you can’t somewhat pass block. The contract they gave him was ridiculous especially when you look at what Jack Conklin got for the browns. Danny Shelton is what he is, a rotational run stuffer. Desmond Trufant hasn’t been healthy for years, and when he did play was definitely not a number 1 capable corner for about 3-5 years. The reason Patricia and Quinn failed were because their player acquisition was awful. They shipped out talented players for garbage and replaced them with nothing. They were so far gone from reality it was ridiculous. Jahlani Tavai? Like what is that?

Vaitai for sure showed good things when he did start for Eagles (ended up with average grade for Detroit BTW). He didn't start because Eagles had two stud tackles and a stud RG. He showed good things as a run blocker and that didnt' happen due to injuries. And who knows if Crosby doing well made them move him to RG along with his injury. We will never know due to his injury. We'll see if he remains here and does well next year. Vaitai was 11th ranked in league in 2019. 55th in 2020. On paper it was a good move

Nick Williams wasn't paid big money. Either was Shelton. Shelton is a run stuffer who didn't do well enough especially once Flowers was gone. That injury affected many things and then Shelton missed 4 games. That is a quarter of the season there when we needed him.

Williams hurt his shoulder early but came on stronger and stronger. Williams proved he could play well before. Tracy Walker could too. Both took a step back for various reasons. But going into the season, no reason to doubt them especially Walker. Hand is solid but missed 6 games again

Trufant never had hamstring injuries this bad. It was a fluke injury riddled year and lack of full camp had a lot to do with it too. Trufant is a starting caliber number 1 CB. His PFF Grade supports that in 2019 too. Worth the signing to pair with Okudah. Both got hurt and Coleman got hurt. AO started fine but then faltered down the stretch too and when pressed to cover number 1s. AO should have been number 2 at best but there was injuries.

Everything snowballed and went to shit from injuries and regression and some of that due to coaching not the players. Based on past performance, those were good signings. But now in year 2 some those deals won't be worth it from the backload. Trufant, Shelton or Williams could all be cut. Coleman too. Jessie James too. Depends who the new GM wants to keep and how much cap space he wants to create

 

[dtroitlionsfan951]

Vaitai for sure showed good things when he did start for Eagles (ended up with average grade for Detroit BTW). He didn't start because Eagles had two stud tackles and a stud RG. He showed good things as a run blocker and that didnt' happen due to injuries. And who knows if Crosby doing well made them move him to RG along with his injury. We will never know due to his injury. We'll see if he remains here and does well next year. Vaitai was 11th ranked in league in 2019. 55th in 2020. On paper it was a good move

Nick Williams wasn't paid big money. Either was Shelton. Shelton is a run stuffer who didn't do well enough especially once Flowers was gone. That injury affected many things and then Shelton missed 4 games. That is a quarter of the season there when we needed him.

Williams hurt his shoulder early but came on stronger and stronger. Williams proved he could play well before. Tracy Walker could too. Both took a step back for various reasons. But going into the season, no reason to doubt them especially Walker. Hand is solid but missed 6 games again

Trufant never had hamstring injuries this bad. It was a fluke injury riddled year and lack of full camp had a lot to do with it too. Trufant is a starting caliber number 1 CB. His PFF Grade supports that in 2019 too. Worth the signing to pair with Okudah. Both got hurt and Coleman got hurt. AO started fine but then faltered down the stretch too and when pressed to cover number 1s. AO should have been number 2 at best but there was injuries.

Everything snowballed and went to shit from injuries and regression and some of that due to coaching not the players. Based on past performance, those were good signings. But now in year 2 some those deals won't be worth it from the backload. Trufant, Shelton or Williams could all be cut. Coleman too. Jessie James too. Depends who the new GM wants to keep and how much cap space he wants to create

Trufant was the 32nd highest rated corner in 2019. Dunno what you?re talking about, that?s not very good for a number 1. Check Vaitais last 2018 and 2017 in which he was one of the worst in the league. In 2019 he was a swing tackle who was only used in positions which played to his strengths. His pass blocking grade was just 65. Once again, you can?t be a starter being that bad at pass blocking my guy. And that 65 was probably his best ever