Near slavery is still alive in SC bible college

[KAWDUP]

Name one thing in your life that you have faith in that has no evidence to back up your faith.

Again, you use faith as a belief in a physical thing. I have faith in the sanctity of human life. I have faith in and firmly believe that the family unit (without making a judgment who is necessarily in that unit) is the strongest entity we have to fight sin, hypocrisy and most evil.

This answer is assuming, of course, that you don't want to hear about the resurrection of Christ, or some other tenet of my religion.

 

[Monster]

It isn't that you have no right to do so - it is that you are accusing God of sins that he has not committed. You are using your interpretations of what you read, and how you judge actions attributed to Him, to make significant statements about His imperfections. I think, of course, that you are wrong. Jealously, anger, and murder - are exactly the sins man would be guilty of. God - not so much.

Exodus 34:14

Do not worship any other god for the lord is a jealous god.


What would you call a being that wiped out an entire population of humans, plants, animals, and fish? What would you call a being that commands an army to kill everything in a city, including the innocent children by dashing their heads against the wall? What would you call a being that commands soldiers to cut open pregnant women's bellies? What would you call a being that gets so mad at children for disobeying their parents, that he kills them or wants them killed?

 

[Gulo Blue]

I apologize if you think I am saying you're stupid. That's not the case at all. I do think that you ignore things because you do not want to put cracks in your beliefs. This is natural. It's very human. Again, this is why I am agnostic. I don't believe there is evidence to rule out some sort of supreme being. Likewise, there is no evidence to support one. If cracks appear in my beliefs, then I have to go with the evidence. I can't just go with the popular story that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

I'm not arrogant enough to think I have all the answers. But since I do not have your biases about your religion, I can see the whole picture. I see the flaws. I see the obvious attempts to keep people from leaving the religion or even doubting it. Not just your religion, but all of them.

If there is a god or creator, he/she/it/they have never made their presence known. I am satisfied living my life unselfishly, with love and respect for people who deserve it. If for some reason your God is real and he sentences me to burn in Hell, I think that says more about him than it does me.

"Oh, you gave to charity your entire adult life, mentored young at risk kids, took care of your family and friends, made mistakes as a young adult and matured into a positive role model? Well, you didn't believe in me, so go to hell!"

Yes, that makes sense.

You think I ignore things. For the most part, I don't think I'm ignoring them, I just think I justify their presence by assuming they are there through human failings or a lack of context. The faith I have in the Bible, the part I attribute to divine inspiration, is that the important truths are in there to a degree appropriate to humanity's capability and effort sunk into understanding it across time and translations. I, as a well-intentioned, but not exceptionally well-studied reader, can access knowledge appropriate to my needs. There are parts I don't get. Whether I don't get them because I don't have the appropriate context or whether they were better suited to a different people in a different age is a matter more for people that devote more scholarly research time to the matter. I think I understand why you consider that to be ignoring, but I also think that considering how popular this approach is, it's a little strange when you keep coming back to talks of homicidal maniacs. To me (and I think I've said this before), it seems like you want to tell people "You're reading the Bible wrong, if you read it the way I do, you'll see that you're crazy."

 

[KAWDUP]

If there is a god or creator, he/she/it/they have never made their presence known. I am satisfied living my life unselfishly, with love and respect for people who deserve it. If for some reason your God is real and he sentences me to burn in Hell, I think that says more about him than it does me.

"Oh, you gave to charity your entire adult life, mentored young at risk kids, took care of your family and friends, made mistakes as a young adult and matured into a positive role model? Well, you didn't believe in me, so go to hell!"

Yes, that makes sense.

This is a common argument for not believing in God. Hey, if there is one, he will forgive me, and I will still be in "heaven", because if not, what kind of a God could he possibly be? The standard answer is that those who believe in him, will be at His right hand (we can cover what this means later). It does not mean you will "burn in hell", just that you will not be with Him. I think "hell" as you think of it, is reserved for those who truly turn away from God and are truly evil. When the time comes, God will know what is in your heart, and then you will be judged. You aren't going to trick Him. Have you ever heard of purgatory?

 

[KAWDUP]

You think I ignore things. For the most part, I don't think I'm ignoring them, I just think I justify their presence by assuming they are there through human failings or a lack of context. The faith I have in the Bible, the part I attribute to divine inspiration, is that the important truths are in there to a degree appropriate to humanity's capability and effort sunk into understanding it across time and translations. I, as a well-intentioned, but not exceptionally well-studied reader, can access knowledge appropriate to my needs. There are parts I don't get. Whether I don't get them because I don't have the appropriate context or whether they were better suited to a different people in a different age is a matter more people than devote more scholarly research time to the matter. I think understand why you consider that to be ignoring, but I also think that considering how popular this approach is, it's a little strange when you keep coming back to talks of homicidal maniacs. To me (and I think I've said this before), it seems like you want to tell people "You're reading the Bible wrong, if you read it the way I do, you'll see that you're crazy."

I am very much in agreement with what you say here Red.

 

[Gulo Blue]

If cracks appear in my beliefs, then I have to go with the evidence. I can't just go with the popular story that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

I wanted to highlight this part. I feel the same way.

 

[Gulo Blue]

This is a common argument for not believing in God. Hey, if there is one, he will forgive me, and I will still be in "heaven", because if not, what kind of a God could he possibly be? The standard answer is that those who believe in him, will be at His right hand (we can cover what this means later). It does not mean you will "burn in hell", just that you will not be with Him. I think "hell" as you think of it, is reserved for those who truly turn away from God and are truly evil. When the time comes, God will know what is in your heart, and then you will be judged. You aren't going to trick Him. Have you ever heard of purgatory?

I think I've said this before, but there is some nice convergence of some various faiths if you consider a human mind to be enlightened in the afterlife. Reacting to a full understanding of your role in the could reward or punishment or a temporary state where you work through things.

Except reincarnation. That's one might be at odds.

 

[KAWDUP]

Exodus 34:14

Do not worship any other god for the lord is a jealous god.


What would you call a being that wiped out an entire population of humans, plants, animals, and fish? What would you call a being that commands an army to kill everything in a city, including the innocent children by dashing their heads against the wall? What would you call a being that commands soldiers to cut open pregnant women's bellies? What would you call a being that gets so mad at children for disobeying their parents, that he kills them or wants them killed?

Describing Him as a jealous God (meaning He does not want any other gods before you) is not the same as attributing the sin of jealousy to Him. He is not jealous of any other gods. Can you see the distinction?

You realize its possible you are attributing evil to God, when you may not have the correct interpretation, the proper context, or even the correct events. Is it not possible that the actual words and meanings are being interpreted so that the beliefs and norms of the people being talked to would understand what it meant? I am not apologizing for the evil you attribute to God, I am saying it is not God that is the sinner in these matters, it is man.

 

[Monster]

This is a common argument for not believing in God. Hey, if there is one, he will forgive me, and I will still be in "heaven", because if not, what kind of a God could he possibly be? The standard answer is that those who believe in him, will be at His right hand (we can cover what this means later). It does not mean you will "burn in hell", just that you will not be with Him. I think "hell" as you think of it, is reserved for those who truly turn away from God and are truly evil. When the time comes, God will know what is in your heart, and then you will be judged. You aren't going to trick Him. Have you ever heard of purgatory?

See, this is the problem we have. Symbolism. We all interpret the bible differently because there is or is not (depending on what you believe) a ton of symbolism throughout the book. Some see literal meanings in one verse. Some see symbolism in that same verse. Even biblical scholars disagree on this stuff.

If Hell is just the absence of God, then perhaps you are right. But, I do think that your version is one that is a huge minority in the Christian world. Most people believe Hell to be a literal place and a literal punishment.

And purgatory never appears in the bible. There are ultra vague references that could be interpreted as purgatory if you already have a set definition of purgatory, but without a previous definition, you would never come to that conclusion.

It's a nice thought, I guess, but not a very popular or common one amongst Christians.

 

[Monster]

Describing Him as a jealous God (meaning He does not want any other gods before you) is not the same as attributing the sin of jealousy to Him. He is not jealous of any other gods. Can you see the distinction?

You realize its possible you are attributing evil to God, when you may not have the correct interpretation, the proper context, or even the correct events. Is it not possible that the actual words and meanings are being interpreted so that the beliefs and norms of the people being talked to would understand what it meant? I am not apologizing for the evil you attribute to God, I am saying it is not God that is the sinner in these matters, it is man.

What about the people who were not evil? The innocent were killed, too. It's one thing to kill evil, but entirely another to kill innocents just because the rest of humanity is sinful.

If this was anyone else or any other god, you would agree with me. I'm certain of that.

 

[KAWDUP]

What about the people who were not evil? The innocent were killed, too. It's one thing to kill evil, but entirely another to kill innocents just because the rest of humanity is sinful.

If this was anyone else or any other god, you would agree with me. I'm certain of that.

Are we back to the free will issue? Why is their evil in the world? That's what this sounds like - it is no proof that God is evil - it is that He loves us so much as to give us free will - the ability to decide to turn away from Him or follow Him. It is totally up to the individual. You need to understand the why's and how's on the limits of human understanding of these events. I can't tell you I know what God's actual thoughts and instructions were, but I highly doubt they were evil and believe whole-heartedly that they were not. Man's interpretations and actions are entirely another story.

I am guessing we aren't going to solve this in this thread. I will keep discussing it, if you think it will help, but we do seem to be going around in circles.

 

[KAWDUP]

See, this is the problem we have. Symbolism. We all interpret the bible differently because there is or is not (depending on what you believe) a ton of symbolism throughout the book. Some see literal meanings in one verse. Some see symbolism in that same verse. Even biblical scholars disagree on this stuff.

If Hell is just the absence of God, then perhaps you are right. But, I do think that your version is one that is a huge minority in the Christian world. Most people believe Hell to be a literal place and a literal punishment.

And purgatory never appears in the bible. There are ultra vague references that could be interpreted as purgatory if you already have a set definition of purgatory, but without a previous definition, you would never come to that conclusion.

It's a nice thought, I guess, but not a very popular or common one amongst Christians.

Right, a name applied to "not with Him". BTW it isn't just my version - you make it sound like I am blazing a minority trail - but that just means you haven't studied with religious scholars. :*)

Not to start another war of words, but heaven and hell are not places, that is just an easier interpretation to help people understand. They are states of being or existence. I am not going to dash anyone's vision of heaven - that is up to each of us to consider what it actually will be, but when you think about it in the terms I mention, it makes more sense what is meant when I say "purgatory". It is a state of existence without the presence of God. I am not going to be able to make you fully understand in a single blog thread about what I am talking about - but I suggest asking a religious scholar sometime. You aren't lying when you said there are multiple interpretations. I think all of them need to be considered when preparing to make definitive statements on the matter, and I am not sure you are there yet. Not that you can't argue from your own interpretation - that is what you are actually doing, but I certainly wouldn't discount God based just on that.

 

[tinselwolverine]

What about the people who were not evil? The innocent were killed, too. It's one thing to kill evil, but entirely another to kill innocents just because the rest of humanity is sinful.

If this was anyone else or any other god, you would agree with me. I'm certain of that.

Some of those mythological gods could be real mean mothers. Athena, the goddess of the hunt, some archer dude just happened to wander where she was bathing naked out in the woods. She turned him into a deer, and his own son shit him with an arrow through the throat just the way Bambi's mother went.

What a bitch.

 

[Monster]

I'm saying the god of the bible killed innocent people, too. He didn't just kill sinners. And not all sinners are evil. I understand that other gods have been pricks, but this christian God is no better. Perhaps worse.

 

[Monster]

If heaven isn't a real place, you need to convince hundreds of millions of christians otherwise. I have no idea how anyone could interpret the bible's words as meaning heaven and hell are not actual places. Please, enlighten me.

 

[Thumb]

The Bible is every bit as bloodthirsty a book as the Qur'an. Anyone who denies this is blinded to objectivity.

But plenty of "Christians" consider Muslims to be their enemies.

 

[tinselwolverine]

I am guessing we aren't going to solve this in this thread. I will keep discussing it, if you think it will help, but we do seem to be going around in circles.

Really?

Because I've been thinking that the two of you are getting pretty close to coming up with the answer.

 

[Gulo Blue]

If heaven isn't a real place, you need to convince hundreds of millions of christians otherwise. I have no idea how anyone could interpret the bible's words as meaning heaven and hell are not actual places. Please, enlighten me.

I find that difficult to believe, but certainly google will know. I'll be honest here and take 'em as a find 'em.

Of 1,200 that voted on a poll on ChristiaNet.com, 94% believe it's an actual place.

Well, that's clearly a self-selected group.

Here, we go. ABC news: http://abcnews.go.com/US/Beliefs/story?id=1422658

"About eight in 10 believers envision heaven as a place where people exist only spiritually, not physically."

I'm going to stop looking now that I've found data that supports my expectations. Science!

...

HOWEVER...you didn't say "most Christians" (although that's how I interpreted it when I googled). You said "hundreds of millions". If 78% think it's not a place, as many as 22% might think it is a place. If the rest of the world's Christians believe it's a place as often or more often than Christians in the US, you still have hundreds of millions. So maybe...technically, you might be right.

 

[Monster]

I find that difficult to believe, but certainly google will know. I'll be honest here and take 'em as a find 'em.

Of 1,200 that voted on a poll on ChristiaNet.com, 94% believe it's an actual place.

Well, that's clearly a self-selected group.

Here, we go. ABC news: http://abcnews.go.com/US/Beliefs/story?id=1422658

"About eight in 10 believers envision heaven as a place where people exist only spiritually, not physically."

I'm going to stop looking now that I've found data that supports my expectations. Science!

...

HOWEVER...you didn't say "most Christians" (although that's how I interpreted it when I googled). You said "hundreds of millions". If 78% think it's not a place, as many as 22% might think it is a place. If the rest of the world's Christians believe it's a place as often or more often than Christians in the US, you still have hundreds of millions. So maybe...technically, you might be right.

I almost said billions, but I realized there's what 2-3 billion christians in the world? Even if only 50% of all Christians believed it, it would still be hundreds of millions. If you add muslims (who also believe in heaven) it'd probably be billions.

 

[evolutionkb]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3mX0YRrjM

Sam Harris on religion.