New Atlanta Braves Stadium & GA Tea Party

[Michchamp]

This is an interesting situation...

owners tried to shakedown Atlanta for a new stadium, and the mayor refused to go higher than $200 million in improvements to the current one & surrounding infrastructure.

so... the owners move to neighboring Cobb County, by all accounts I've read a hardcore right-wing, mostly white, affluent area... which agreed to almost double what Atlanta put on the table, up to $392 million, give or take $5 million.

Ironically, the only "no" vote among the 5 county commissioners was the lone democrat on the board.

"Tea Party leader Dooley was astounded, she said.

?The lone dissenting vote was the Democrat, and she all of a sudden became a conservative Tea Party champion,? Dooley said. ?She said all the things Republicans normally would.?​

Yeah... imagine that. At least you have to give the true believers in the Tea Party credit here... they're making a stink over this so far. At the county meeting, opponents of the handout who refused to shut up were forcibly escorted from the room.

The usual excuses for this massive welfare handout were given...

I think the evidence that new stadiums are bad for the taxpayers (and hell, anyone who has to live in the cash-strapped cities that result) is pretty overwhelming now. - http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704461304576216330349497852

- http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-05/in-stadium-building-spree-u-s-taxpayers-lose-4-billion.html

 

[TheVictors]

That stadium was built by taxpayer dollars, IOC funds and corporate financing for the 1996 Atlanta Summer games and then left for the Braves, all brand new and all.


greedy, greedy ...

 

[biggunsbob]

Millionaires and billionaires asking for tax breaks... Now That's a new one. LOL
Frustrating as hell..

 

[tinselwolverine]

The Atlanta Braves have always been my least favorite team.

 

[Spartanmack]

Municipal funding for stadiums is beyond stupid. They just have to look down I-75 to see what a disaster the marlins stadium deal was for the Miami-Dade county taxpayers. Crap like this is why other than the Red Wings, I no longer follow professional sports.

 

[Michchamp]

Municipal funding for stadiums is beyond stupid. They just have to look down I-75 to see what a disaster the marlins stadium deal was for the Miami-Dade county taxpayers. Crap like this is why other than the Red Wings, I no longer follow professional sports.

and the wings fucked over Detroit on the eve of the bankruptcy. but since the Illitches are rich that's okay.

 

[Spartanmack]

and the wings fucked over Detroit on the eve of the bankruptcy. but since the Illitches are rich that's okay.

Yes, I like the Red Wings because unlike other owners of sports teams, the Ilitch's are rich so it's OK. That's a ridiculous comment. I actually don't care about the Ilitch family and they're not the reason I like the Wings but as far as owners go, they're about as good as it gets. If you check their record, they've done more to preserve, revitalize or invest in Detroit than any politician in the last 50 years. And they put a lot more of their own money into stadium projects - 70% for Comerica Park was privately funded, the new Wings Arena is going to be entirely funded by private money and both of those projects really were in blighted areas that the City couldn't fix themselves. And, even if they were like the Marlins or Braves owners, I find way more fault with the local governments whose duty it is to protect taxpayers by being good stewards of taxpayer money than I do with the greedy team owners.

 

[TheVictors]

Ilitch has done more for the city of Detroit than any other person since Henry Ford.

As for municipal funding of stadiums, I think those days are drawing to a close. Just look at LA's fight for a new NFL stadium in hopes of luring the Jags, Chargers or some other (not the Vikings now) team there. The State is so bankrupt and economy so fucked that the notion of a publicly-funded stadium draws ire and anger from the citizens.

Here in Denver, the "new" stadium was brilliantly put on the local ballot just AFTER winning the Super Bowl. Owner Pat Bowlen floated the idea of relocating to LA ...just maybe, and the bond issue passed by a large margin. Ironically, the current Governor of Colorado - then small business owner/microbrew owner - fought the new stadium agenda tooth and nail and lead a group of citizens who wanted to remodel Mile Hi instead.

Now it's been about installing flatscreen TVs all over the place and provding better WiFi ...which I can attest to as being vastly superior to Michigan Stadium in that regard.

 

[Michchamp]

... the new Wings Arena is going to be entirely funded by private money and both of those projects really were in blighted areas that the City couldn't fix themselves. ...

I don't think that's true, based on what I've read:

Olympia Development will pick up 42% of the arena’s construction cost. The other 58% — the public’s share — will come from a complex financing arrangement that uses school and local property tax revenue collected by Detroit’s Downtown Development Authority to pay off state-issued bonds. The authority will own the arena and lease it — rent-free — to the Red Wings for up to 95 years.

The 30-year bonds would be partially paid off through annual payments of between $12.8 million and $15 million from money the development authority captures from school property taxes. The state would then reimburse any shortfall to Detroit’s per-pupil funding as a result of the redirected property taxes — an obligation that will put state taxpayers on the hook for the majority of the arena project’s public investment.​

In a lot of these infamous deals, there's more than meets the eye, and in a way that conceals the true financial impact of the deal on the taxpayers. Also, no one ever makes the link between shitty city services/neglect/poor 911 response times, crumbling roads in residential areas, etc. etc. with any direct cause, even though cities are continually handing out cash deals to developers and tax breaks for corporations. I don't know why... it's easier to just "blame government" i guess and clamor for more privatization.

... and both of those projects really were in blighted areas that the City couldn't fix themselves. ...

that presupposes there's still no better use for the money... which rest on your mere assertion. The stretch between Midtown & Downtown isn't really that bad, and the way things are going it will probably be developed eventually. maybe it would be better invested in a different area? Seems like a fig leaf tacked on to cover a handout made on the eve of bankruptcy.

this part of the deal is great too (link):

The vote authorizes the city to sell the public land for $1 to the Detroit Downtown Development Authority, which will own the arena and lease it for up to 95 years to Olympia Development of Michigan. The company is owned by the Ilitch family, which owns the Red Wings.​

At least they don't get to own it... just renting it for ninety-five years for nothing. though don't feel too bad for them if you still are, in this new deal they get to keep 100% of the revenues from operating it; at Joe Louis, they had to share 10% with the city. Communism.

the Illitch's timing couldn't have been worse, but with the money they have, you can buy yourself favorable news coverage... or at least get the coverage neutral enough to get your way.

deadspin covered this as well:

And that doesn't even include the land. On February 4, City Council voted 6-3 to sell Olympia and the DDA, who will own the arena, 39 vacant parcels for $1. An analysis of city records by the Detroit Free Press found that "several private landowners succeeded in netting millions for themselves by selling similarly situated land in the arena's footprint to Ilitch-controlled corporations." Rather than sell the land at market rate, the city is giving them the rest the same way you sell your younger sibling your old car—$1, but just for the title transfer.

Olympia Development's CEO Tom Wilson, without a hint of irony, called it a "once-in-a-generation" deal.

Jerry Belanger, who owns the Park Bar near the proposed new arena, voiced his displeasure with the once-in-a-generation deal. "I'm going to be taxed to buy [Ilitch] bars and restaurants that will be my competitor," he said. "He can't go toe-to-toe with me on a fair playing field. He can't win without public money."​

 

[Michchamp]

deadspin:

No money will come directly from the city's general fund—something advocates of the deal are quick to point out—but instead the bulk of public funding will come by way of tax increment financing (TIF). Taxes captured in the 615-acre Downtown Development Authority (DDA) district will be poured into the project. The Michigan Strategic Fund, a state economic development agency, will issue 30-year tax-exempt bonds backed by three revenue streams: The aforementioned TIF capture, various other tax revenues from the DDA and Olympia Development, the Ilitch's $2 billion enterprise.

The TIF capture will contribute at least $12.8 million annually, though it can't exceed $15 million. The DDA will contribute about $2.15 million in separate tax collections. Olympia will toss in $11.5 million. And, as Crain's Detroit detailed in July, public money will pay for $261.5 million (58 percent) of the construction costs, while Olympia only has to pay $188.4 million (42 percent).

If you're searching for something particularly craven in the complicated financing structure—that is, something other than the careless use of public money itself—look to where, exactly, the tax capture comes from. In December 2012, the Michigan legislature restored Detroit's ability to levy school-tax funds from the downtown district for economic development purposes. If that $12.8 million annual gift weren't going to the Illitch empire, it would go to the state's School Aid Fund.

This is not to say that the arena will take money out of Detroit Public Schools (DPS) general fund. "The state is making up the shortfalls," said Bob Rossbach, spokesperson for the DDA. "So there is no difference to a student in Detroit Public Schools whether this money is refunding bonds or goes directly into the DPS budget." But it is diminishing the state's School Aid Fund by diverting the taxes for "economic development" purposes. Something, somewhere, is taking a hit.

Nonetheless, the Ilitch family—with its estimated $3.2 billion net worth—will get a new stadium, slated to open for the 2016-2017 season, built off the backs of taxpayers.​

This is basically three card monte with taxpayer funds. They may move money between a few different gov't accounts, but in the end, you see it end up in Mike Illitch's pocket. tell us again how bad the Bankruptcy settlement is for Michigan taxpayers...

The rich get richer, using public funds/infrastructure, then use their wealth to justify taking more since they're "successful businessmen" who "do a lot for the city."

These types of deals are always justified by pointing to the money they make for the city... but I think the consensus around tax & public policy advocates is that they're a net loss for the municipalities/taxpayers. That's a lot different than what you hear from the paid PR flacks who defend these things. It's like they're not speaking the same language.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Did I ever tell you guys that I went to Michigan with Atanis Ilitch?

He was an actor/performance artistic too. We did a number of projects together.

His parents always came to the shows.

 

[Michchamp]

Did I ever tell you guys that I went to Michigan with Atanis Ilitch?

He was an actor/performance artistic too. We did a number of projects together.

His parents always came to the shows.

I went to highschool with one of his grandsons. Nice guy; pretty quiet. I guess his parents were divorced and he lived with his mother (who was not an Illitch). Illitch has 7 kids, and presumably many more grandkids

this blurb on the family in the wikipedia on him is unintentionally hilarious:

The family was presented the key to the City of Detroit by Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick on February 14, 2008. They are the fifth recipients of this award in the history of the city, the others being actor James Earl Jones, neurosurgeon Benjamin Carson, former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and Pittsburgh Steeler Jerome Bettis.​

except James Earl Jones, quite the rogues' gallery there...

 

[Michchamp]

... And, even if they were like the Marlins or Braves owners, I find way more fault with the local governments whose duty it is to protect taxpayers by being good stewards of taxpayer money than I do with the greedy team owners.

...which ignores the fact that these same greedy owners help get the mayors who give them handouts re-elected, and bankroll the opposition of mayors who don't.

and also allows you to talk out of both sides of your mouth when trying to argue why it's okay to cheer for the Red Wings and defend that deal, but bitch about $150 million or so of state money going to preserve retirees' pensions in Detroit.

 

[Spartanmack]

I don't think that's true, based on what I've read:

Olympia Development will pick up 42% of the arena’s construction cost. The other 58% — the public’s share — will come from a complex financing arrangement that uses school and local property tax revenue collected by Detroit’s Downtown Development Authority to pay off state-issued bonds. The authority will own the arena and lease it — rent-free — to the Red Wings for up to 95 years.​

I misread the Freep piece which I thought said the city's only contribution would be the sale of land for $1. However, upon further examination, it's also not entirely true that the Red Wings just get 58% for nothing - Olympia Development would be responsible for paying off a portion of bonds issued to pay for the arena’s construction. Presumably, if they were paying rent, it would be used to pay off the debt associated with the building.

...Also, no one ever makes the link between shitty city services/neglect/poor 911 response times, crumbling roads in residential areas, etc. etc. with any direct cause, even though cities are continually handing out cash deals to developers and tax breaks for corporations. I don't know why... it's easier to just "blame government" i guess and clamor for more privatization.

I don't know where you get this from - I've never advocated for the privitization of revenue sources (Chicago skyway, parking meters, etc). I do think outsourcing a lot of the City's cost centers to private enterprise that care about the bottom line and will perform those services more efficiently is often a good idea. Of course, then we wouldn't be paying garbage men enough to buy a house, 2 cars, send 3 kids to college and have a summer place up north and a pension that pays for health insurance and 80% of his salary in perpituity and that's clearly bad for society.

that presupposes there's still no better use for the money... which rest on your mere assertion. The stretch between Midtown & Downtown isn't really that bad, and the way things are going it will probably be developed eventually. maybe it would be better invested in a different area? Seems like a fig leaf tacked on to cover a handout made on the eve of bankruptcy.

At least they don't get to own it... just renting it for ninety-five years for nothing. though don't feel too bad for them if you still are, in this new deal they get to keep 100% of the revenues from operating it; at Joe Louis, they had to share 10% with the city. Communism.

It doesn't presuppose anything - I never said the project had to be done or that any public money should be spent on it. Just that the land was blighted and the City was doing nothing with it getting nothing from it - and recall, at the time I was under the impression the land was the City's only contribution to the project. this is just another instance of you hearing what you want so you can go off on another silly straw man rant, most of which is mere assertion, including what you assert I said or think.

Who feels bad for the Ilitches? - again more mere assertion for your silly rant. You need to think I'm in support of this deal despite my original post in which I clearly said using tax payer money for stadiums is always a bad idea. But again, I don't blame the greedy owners, it's clearly the corrupt politicians screwing the taxpayers in these deals.​

 

[Spartanmack]

...which ignores the fact that these same greedy owners help get the mayors who give them handouts re-elected, and bankroll the opposition of mayors who don't.

and also allows you to talk out of both sides of your mouth when trying to argue why it's okay to cheer for the Red Wings and defend that deal, but bitch about $150 million or so of state money going to preserve retirees' pensions in Detroit.

yeah, because without the Ilitches Coleman A Young, Dennis Archer and Kwame Kilpatrick never would have gotten elected Mayor of the City of Detroit. That's too funny. But you need to believe the office is bought and paid for and that if somehow some other democrat won, it would all be different so you can make false, unfounded and nonsensical accusations of me talking out of both sides of my mouth for defending a deal that I never tried to defend as I wasn't even aware of it until yesterday or that I'm a Red Wings fan because I love the Ilitches.

The whole premise of your argument is moronic. I said in the beginning that public money for stadiums is a horrible idea and it's part of why I've become disenchanted with professional sports - it's mostly things like ridiculous player salaries, ticket prices, the culture (or subculture) or sports, Ray Lewis, Aaron Hernandez, Barry Bonds, etc, etc. that have caused me to lose all interest in the NFL, NBA and MLB. The reasons I still cheer for and follow the Wings are 1) I've always liked NHL hockey more than the other major pro sports and 2) although they seem to be catching up, hockey is way behind the other majors in the things that have turned me off of them.

 

[KAWDUP]

In answer to the OP:

I know quite a few of those Cobb County residents that are against it mostly due to the exponential increase in traffic around the perimeter that it will create.

Certainly the county is happy to take advantage of tax-payers - what county in the US isn't doing that on a nearly daily basis?

Is it only interesting because one of the Tea Party's main tenets is to decrease tax payments and overspending? From what little I know of today's Tea Party, I think they certainly used to be happy to take on Democrats and Republicans alike in this kind of endeavor, and I hadn't really seen a huge shift in at least that stated goal? Have you?

Maybe it is interesting to you, because you hope it skewers some conservative somewhere. That would be my bet, at least.

 

[Michchamp]

...

Is it only interesting because one of the Tea Party's main tenets is to decrease tax payments and overspending? From what little I know of today's Tea Party, I think they certainly used to be happy to take on Democrats and Republicans alike in this kind of endeavor, and I hadn't really seen a huge shift in at least that stated goal? Have you?

...

YES, and because despite the pork barrel outlays of the Bush Years, there was no Tea Party complaining from 2001-2008.

I don't think the cute little budget graphs people find online to support their points really show accurate cash flows either, as they conflate tax breaks with spending (e.g. when trying to show Obama's Stimulus as higher than it was) or otherwise attempt to exclude discretionary spending, additional authorizations, etc. when trying to make spending appear lower.

But basically, I'm interested in seeing what happens to the mind of the Tea Partier when he or she sees the GOP isn't really an answer to his complaints about taxes & spending. Some Tea Partiers are consistent & legit, and try to actually get involved; I can respect that. some are just darker shades of red, card carrying Republicans, that are only interested in the rhetoric to the extent it mobilizes angry white cranks.