NRA wasn't always so crazy

[redandguilty]

I'm not saying I was pro-ban on those industries, just that I would not object.

I don't eat fast food, or drink soda. But in the end, I do believe both are probably as dangerous as tobacco is, as far as the long term illness/deaths caused by prolonged use.

I wouldn't be entirely opposed to a tax raised to help pay for medicare or something like that. Just an effort to account for a negative externality.

 

[KAWDUP]

I'm not saying I was pro-ban on those industries, just that I would not object.

I don't eat fast food, or drink soda. But in the end, I do believe both are probably as dangerous as tobacco is, as far as the long term illness/deaths caused by prolonged use.

One may work a bit quicker to kill you though. The pure number of carcinogens in tobacco smoke staggers the imagination.

I only drink diet soda, and very sparingly eat fast food (sometimes I just can't go without my Chik-Fil-A), but I think I would still object.

Most would prefer that their faults and/or carbon footprint would never impact your bottom line, but you can't argue that that isn't part of the society in which we live.

 

[tinselwolverine]

two major differences characterize them today: the shift to being an industry/sales lobby group instead of a sportsman/rights group and the realization that they could sell more guns by embracing the "insane, unhinged, violent loser" element of society, and these apparently occurred post-1980.

this article compiled several quotes from the NRA, from 1938 to the present.

three of the best:

1. ?I have never believed in the general practice of carrying weapons,? said NRA President Karl T. Frederick, a 1920 Olympic gold-medal winner for marksmanship who became a lawyer, praising state gun control laws in Congress. He testified before the 1938 federal gun control law passed. ?I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses.?

3. ?There?s no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons,? said California Gov. Ronald Reagan in May 1967, after two dozen Black Panther Party members walked into the California Statehouse carrying rifles to protest a gun-control bill. Reagan said guns were ?a ridiculous way to solve problems that have to be solved among people of good will.?
​

6. The Second Amendment ?has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud, on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime,? Burger told PBS? News Hour in late 1991, referring to the NRA?s claim that the U.S. Constitution included a personal right to own guns.
​

but don't listen to educated people... listen to jackwads on the internet who cut and paste other arguments to the contrary, logic, consistency, and statistics be damned. also, for the avoidance of doubt, Warren Burger was appointed to the Supreme Court by Richard Nixon in 1969. Hardly a liberal activist...

granted, in #3, Reagan might've felt differently if those were white card-carrying Republicans toting guns into the statehouse to protest gun control, but then again, guns are guns so that shouldn't matter, right?

I wouldn't be entirely opposed to a tax raised to help pay for medicare or something like that. Just an effort to account for a negative externality.

Actually, it's the opposite. When people are working and on private insurance, that's when most private insurance companies should insist on good healthy behavior, or insirees will get hit with a sharp premium raise.

Then, once people retire, and are eligible for Medicare, you want them to flip, and engage in all the dangerous behaviors that will kill them off as quickly as possible, that they can.

 

[redandguilty]

Actually, it's the opposite. When people are working and on private insurance, that's when most private insurance companies should insist on good healthy behavior, or insirees will get hit with a sharp premium raise.

Then, once people retire, and are eligible for Medicare, you want them to flip, and engage in all the dangerous behaviors that will kill them off as quickly as possible, that they can.

Yeah, but junk food doesn't kill people off quickly. It can keep them on medication for decades. Maybe you have an argument for government subsidies of motorcycles and limiting helmet laws to people under the age of 67.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Yeah, but junk food doesn't kill people off quickly. It can keep them on medication for decades. Maybe you have an argument for government subsidies of motorcycles and limiting helmet laws to people under the age of 67.

Junkfood does when you lay sit with arsenic!

I'm always thinking outside of the box…

Edit: Ha! look how auto text interpreted it! I'm just going to leave it the way it is; I'm sure you guys can figure it out.

 

[Michchamp]

lay sit?

better google that one.

 

[redandguilty]

lay sit?

better google that one.

Standard couch potato position. It also kills people slowly, unless you add arsenic.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Standard couch potato position. It also kills people slowly, unless you add arsenic.

You mean, lace the lay sit? Lace it with arsenic?

 

[Michchamp]

couch potato is a funny phrase when you think about it.

...okay, now we're a little off topic.

 

[tinselwolverine]

couch potato is a funny phrase when you think about it.

...okay, now we're a little off topic.

If you gave these guys arsenic with stale chips, you'd have arsenic and old Lays.

 

[redandguilty]

If you gave these guys arsenic with stale chips, you'd have arsenic and old Lays.

That would be bully! Serve with elderberry wine.

 

[Michchamp]

wow, the NRA just gets more and more ridiculous.

at the senate hearing yesterday, Wayne LaPierre claimed background checks are pointless since criminals will just ignore them.

he's obviously missing the point, and getting his totally illogical arguments crossed... if they ignore them... THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO BUY GUNS! THAT'S THE POINT.

it's almost like they realize that with their deep pockets they can bury any legislation they don't like, so they're not even trying anymore. they don't even care if their arguments make sense or not. as long as they throw some red meat to the retards that keep paying their monthly NRA dues, they can overcome anything with the cash they have. that's the depth of our public discourse these days...

 

[tinselwolverine]

What seems particularly disingenuous to me about LaPierre was his call for the establishment of a mental health registry in the NRA's first public announcement after the Newtown tragedy.

Okay, fine but-to what end?

How is the mental health registry going to be applied, if there's no background check done against it?

 

[Michchamp]

What seems particularly disingenuous to me about LaPierre was his call for the establishment of a mental health registry in the NRA's first public announcement after the Newtown tragedy.

Okay, fine but-to what end?

How is the mental health registry going to be applied, if there's no background check done against it?

no, no, no. The mental health registry will be in place to make sure crazy people get the treatment they need to be mentally well enough to go buy an assault rifle, 6,000 rounds and not go crazy and shoot 30 people at a movie theatre.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Oh, okay I get it.

But who is going to pay for their treatment to make them cured, within the context of being eligible to buy guns?

You?

Me?

I am pretty sure as shit that byco ain't going to want to pay for it.

 

[byco42]

Prescription drugs kill a lot more people in the U.S. each year than do people who abuse guns. And every one of these mass-killings in the recent past were committed by people who were either taking some brand of anti-depressant or just coming off taking one. The FDA and AMA are silent and no one is blowing a spot light on either organization. There's a relationship that the power-brokers do not want to examine, because it would cost them. No one is calling these organizations to testify before Congress or appear on the Sunday talk circuit. Yet everyone says the NRA is in it for the money only. The focus on the NRA is the handkerchief the magician waves to distract the audience. Prescription drugs obviously play a major role in these incidents ... and ... *crickets*

 

[Michchamp]

Oh, okay I get it.

But who is going to pay for their treatment to make them cured, within the context of being eligible to buy guns?

You?

Me?

I am pretty sure as shit that byco ain't going to want to pay for it.

taxpayers pay, manufacturers (in this case gun manufacturers) reap the benefits. thats how capitalism works.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Prescription drugs kill a lot more people in the U.S. each year than do people who abuse guns. And every one of these mass-killings in the recent past were committed by people who were either taking some brand of anti-depressant or just coming off taking one. The FDA and AMA are silent and no one is blowing a spot light on either organization. There's a relationship that the power-brokers do not want to examine, because it would cost them. No one is calling these organizations to testify before Congress or appear on the Sunday talk circuit. Yet everyone says the NRA is in it for the money only. The focus on the NRA is the handkerchief the magician waves to distract the audience. Prescription drugs obviously play a major role in these incidents ... and ... *crickets*

If this the case, it would indicate that mental health treatment, in its current status, is not part of the solution, as a lot of gun rights activists are claiming.

Because if this is the case, these people were already supposedly under "mental health care."

That said, I haven't heard anything about the Newtown guy's meds-is there a link to any report that he was on, or just coming off, an anti-depressent?

Actually, I haven't heard anything about the meds of the Aurora guy, or the Arizona/Gabby Giffords guy either- is there any report on any of it?

 

[redandguilty]

Prescription drugs kill a lot more people in the U.S. each year than do people who abuse guns.

To be fair, we should also compare the number of lives saved each year by guns and by prescription drugs. Also, if there's an analogy here, you have to compare the regulations applied to each. Prescribing drugs is pretty heavily regulated.

 

[byco42]

If this the case, it would indicate that mental health treatment, in its current status, is not part of the solution, as a lot of gun rights activists are claiming.

Because if this is the case, these people were already supposedly under "mental health care."

That said, I haven't heard anything about the Newtown guy's meds-is there a link to any report that he was on, or just coming off, an anti-depressent?

Actually, I haven't heard anything about the meds of the Aurora guy, or the Arizona/Gabby Giffords guy either- is there any report on any of it?

At least fourteen recent school shootings were committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs. There have been 109 wounded and 58 killed.

Of these 14, seven were seeing either a psychiatrist (5 of them) or psychologist (2 of them). It is not known whether or not the other half were seeing a psychiatrist, as it has not been published.

1. Huntsville, Alabama – February 5, 2012: 15-year-old Hammad Memon shot and killed another Discover Middle School student Todd Brown. Memon had a history for being treated for ADHD and depression. He was taking the antidepressant Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.” He had been seeing a psychiatrist and psychologist.

2. Kauhajoki, Finland – September 23, 2008: 22-year-old culinary student Matti Saari shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine. He was also seeing a psychologist.

3. Dekalb, Illinois – February 14, 2008: 27-year-old Steven Kazmierczak shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amount of Xanax in his system. He had been seeing a psychiatrist.

4. Jokela, Finland – November 7, 2007: 18-year-old Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School in southern Finland, then committed suicide.

5. Cleveland, Ohio – October 10, 2007: 14-year-old Asa Coon stormed through his school with a gun in each hand, shooting and wounding four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon had been placed on the antidepressant Trazodone.

6. Red Lake, Minnesota – March 2005: 16-year-old Jeff Weise, on Prozac, shot and killed his grandparents, then went to his school on the Red Lake Indian Reservation where he shot dead 7 students and a teacher, and wounded 7 before killing himself.

7. Greenbush, New York – February 2004: 16-year-old Jon Romano strolled into his high school in east Greenbush and opened fire with a shotgun. Special education teacher Michael Bennett was hit in the leg. Romano had been taking “medication for depression”. He had previously seen a psychiatrist.

8. Wahluke, Washington – April 10, 2001: Sixteen-year-old Cory Baadsgaard took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates and a teacher hostage. He had been taking the antidepressant Effexor.

9. El Cajon, California – March 22, 2001: 18-year-old Jason Hoffman, on the antidepressants Celexa and Effexor, opened fire on his classmates, wounding three students and two teachers at Granite Hills High School. He had been seeing a psychiatrist before the shooting.

10. Williamsport, Pennsylvania – March 7, 2001: 14-year-old Elizabeth Bush was taking the antidepressant Prozac when she shot at fellow students, wounding one.

11. Conyers, Georgia – May 20, 1999: 15-year-old T.J. Solomon was being treated with the stimulant Ritalin when he opened fire on and wounded six of his classmates.

12. Columbine, Colorado – April 20, 1999: 18-year-old Eric Harris and his accomplice, Dylan Klebold, killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 26 others before killing themselves. Harris was on the antidepressant Luvox. Klebold’s medical records remain sealed. Both shooters had been in anger-management classes and had undergone counseling. Harris had been seeing a psychiatrist before the shooting.

13. Notus, Idaho – April 16, 1999: 15-year-old Shawn Cooper fired two shotgun rounds in his school, narrowly missing students. He was taking a prescribed SSRI antidepressant and Ritalin.

14. Springfield, Oregon – May 21, 1998: 15-year-old Kip Kinkel murdered his parents and then proceeded to school where he opened fire on students in the cafeteria, killing two and wounding 25. Kinkel had been taking the antidepressant Prozac. Kinkel had been attending “anger control classes” and was under the care of a psychologist.

10 additional recent murders and murder-suicides, resulting in 43 dead and 37 wounded:

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania – March 8, 2012: 30-year-old John Shick, former patient of University of Pittsburgh Medical Center (UPMC) and former student at nearby Duquesne University, shot and killed one and injured six inside UPMC’s Western Psychiatrist Institute. Nine antidepressants were identified among the drugs police found in Shick’s apartment.

Seal Beach, California – October 12, 2011: Scott DeKraai, a harbor tugboat worker, entered the hair salon where his ex-wife worked, killing her and seven others and injuring one. At DeKraai’s initial hearing, his attorney indicated to the judge that DeKraai was prescribed the antidepressant Trazodone and the “mood stabilizer” Topamax.

Lakeland, Florida – May 3, 2009: Toxicology test results showed that 34-year-old Troy Bellar was on Tegretol, a drug prescribed for “bi-polar disorder,” when he shot and killed his wife and two of his three children in their home before killing himself.

Granberry Crossing, Alabama – April 26, 2009: 53-year-old Fred B. Davis shot and killed a police officer and wounded a sheriff’s deputy who had responded to a call that Davis had threatened a neighbor with a gun. Prescription drug bottles found at the scene showed that Davis was prescribed the antipsychotic drug Geodon.

Middletown, Maryland – April 17, 2009: Christopher Wood shot and killed his wife, three small children and himself inside their home. Toxicology test results verified that Wood had been taking the antidepressants Cymbalta and Paxil and the anti-anxiety drugs BuSpar and Xanax.

Concord, California – January 11, 2009: Jason Montes, 33, shot and killed his wife and then himself at home. Montes had earlier begun taking the antidepressant Prozac for depression related to his impending divorce and a recent bankruptcy.

Little Rock, Arkansas – August 14, 2008: Less than 48 hours after Timothy Johnson shot and killed Arkansas Democratic Party Chairman Bill Gwatney, the Little Rock Police declared they were investigating shooter’s use of the antidepressant Effexor, which was found in Johnson’s house. A Little Rock city police report later stated that Johnson “was on an anti-depressant and that the drug may have played a part in his ‘irrational and violent behavior.’”

Dekalb, Illinois – February 14, 2008: 27-year-old Steven Kazmierczak shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amount of Xanax in his system.

North Meridian, Florida – July 8, 2003: Doug Williams killed five and wounded nine of his fellow Lockheed Martin employees before killing himself. Williams was reported as having been taking two antidepressants, Zoloft and Celexa, for depression after a failed marriage.

Wakefield, Massachusetts – December 26, 2000: 42-year-old computer technician Michael McDermott had been taking three antidepressants when he hunted down employees in the accounting and human resources offices where he worked, killing seven.

As far back as 1991, CCHR, along with numerous experts brought evidence before the US FDA that antidepressants were causing suicide and violence. The heavily Pharma-funded FDA panel ignored the evidence provided, and it would take 14 years, and a great deal of public pressure, for the FDA to finally issue it’s strongest warning, the black box, on antidepressants inducing suicidal ideation. 21 years later, the FDA has yet to issue a black box warning on antidepressants and other classes of psychiatric drugs documented by international regulatory agencies and studies to cause violence. This is not in the public’s interest, who deserve to be warned, it’s in Big Phama’s interest, upon whose funding the FDA heavily relies on.

http://www.cchrint.org/2012/07/20/t...senseless-shooting-another-psychotropic-drug/